Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life

The Power of Authentic Healing

• Wendy Busby

Share episode

Fatima, a clinical psychologist from Kuwait, shares her journey from people-pleasing to authentic living and how she helps women reconnect with themselves after trauma and disconnection.

• Discovered her calling to psychology at age 11 without understanding what it meant
• Studied anthropology before completing a master's in clinical psychology at the University of Edinburgh
• Specializes in helping women who feel disempowered or unable to express their authentic selves
• Explains how collectivist cultures prioritize group harmony over individual needs
• Describes overcoming people-pleasing by "sitting in the discomfort" of others' displeasure
• Discusses how to identify and rewrite limiting inner narratives
• Shares the transformation process from surviving to thriving through authentic living
• Offers a powerful question for self-reflection: "Would you want this life for your son or daughter?"

You can find Fatima on Instagram @soulfulpsychfatima where she shares authentic content about healing and self-discovery.


Are you curious about what your Enneagram is?
Click here to buy the online Enneagram Test https://wendybusbycoaching.com/online-enneagram-test

For more Enneagram insights follow Wendy on Instagram @wendy_lifeandlove_coach
www.instagram.com/wendy_lifeandlove_coach/

Are you ready to take the first step?
Schedule a complimentary Discovery Session today!
https://book.squareup.com/appointments/9v7sg3737x3zza/location/PEAP86T00HS9P/services

Speaker 1:

And I'd just be like, ooh, how much of this can I tolerate? They're pissed off and I'm not going to go and appease them. I'm not going to go apologize for something I didn't do. I'm going to sit here and feel so uncomfortable until it passes and I have like vivid memories of moments where I really put myself to the test and at the end of sitting there in the discomfort, my inner child is just like smiling from ear to ear because nothing happened to me, I was safe, nobody. Just like smiling from ear to ear because nothing happened to me.

Speaker 2:

I was safe. Nobody did anything. I'm fine, you were still alive. You were still alive, I'm alive.

Speaker 1:

Right and I can advocate for myself, what. That's a thing Like. I don't need to. I don't need to make sure you're okay, I can just. Oh no, so that and that took time.

Speaker 2:

Like a lot of time, like still takes time, still struggle with it sometimes. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Uniquely you, an Enneagram and real life podcast. I'm your host, wendy Busby. Today's episode is a powerful conversation that reaches across the globe literally. I'm joined by Fatima, a clinical psychologist based in Kuwait who's deeply passionate about helping people, especially women, helping them reconnect with themselves after trauma, pain or disconnection. Fatima and I are Instagram friends and when I came across her page, I just loved her vibe so much. She has a very tell it like it is approach that invites people to think and engage in conversations. So I reached out and asked if she'd be open to being on my podcast and I'm absolutely thrilled that she said yes. So here we are today, fatima, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1:

Wendy, thank you for having me. I was super excited when you reached out and asked for me to join the podcast. I love what you do and I feel we resonate on so many different levels, the first being that we're friends on Instagram and we are supporting each other in that way. So happy to be here.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I love that. Yeah, thank you. So when we had a little pre-conversation that's something I like to do when I haven't met someone and so we had a little 30 minute or so Zoom conversation and when we spoke, you shared that you knew really early on that you wanted to be a therapist. So what did that look like for you as a young girl in Kuwait?

Speaker 1:

Well, okay, so I'm huge into manifestation, although I didn't realize I was a great manifester until about a few years ago. I was around 11 and I recall being in a classroom where all the students were being asked what do they want to? Do? You know with their lives what?

Speaker 2:

do you?

Speaker 1:

want to do when you grow up. You know the cliche question. And so they went around and I'm from a background where parents expect their children to be high achievers and to perform great in school and the prestigious thing to do is everybody must be a doctor, an engineer or a lawyer, like it's pretty much those three things, right. So you can imagine I'm in a class full of. I went to an all girls school, segregated government school, so it was all girls and the teacher went around the class and the students were just like, yeah, I want to be a doctor, I want to be an engineer, I want to be a lawyer. And then there was me and then I went, literally I went, I'm going to be a psychologist and there were three teachers at the time in the class because we were in an auditorium for some reason. I don't recall what we were doing there, but they all just stopped and looked at me and then I remember one of them giggling at me like okay, and then went on to the next.

Speaker 1:

I really wasn't offended. I don't think I really cared very much. I also didn't know why I said that, like at that time I was very young, I had never been to therapy. I didn't know anything about therapy. I didn't know anything about psychology at all. All I knew was Ooh, I want to be a therapist. I had no clue, so this is what I'm telling you. It really felt like a deep soul calling for me, and I had no idea.

Speaker 2:

That's really interesting that you didn't even know what it was, but yet you knew the word. You knew enough about it to use the word, but didn't really know it to. To use the word um, but didn't really know what it was. That's so cool. I didn't know that part of it. So, yeah, that makes sense that you're like this was a really deep calling for me.

Speaker 1:

It was I didn't even make it up. Like can't make those things up, like where did that even come from?

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah. So then what happened from there? After you know this as a young girl, you're sitting in class and and you're saying that I want to be a psychologist. What happened after that?

Speaker 1:

Well, immediately after that, nothing. I was kind of that student who I don't know. I really didn't care very much if I had any friends at school or I didn't, because I also rode horses ever since I was seven years old. I have ridden horses ever since and I was competing in the discipline of show jumping. So all I did was go to school because my parents told me that if I wanted to go ride in the afternoon I have to go to school. So I just kind of said that thing I want to be a therapist. Nobody took any notes of it. All the kids my age didn't even know what that means. I don't blame them, because I didn't even know what that meant. Teachers just kind of went on to the next student and the next and the next, and then the bell rang and then kind of life went on. You know, I don't really have many friends.

Speaker 2:

I would have a couple each year here and there, but most of my friends were not in school, so nothing really happened. Now it's time to actually do something with this deep calling that you have. What really drew you to sitting with people in their pain? Because when we talked, you said that you're really passionate about sitting with people in their pain, in their trauma. So what is it about specifically that that is so meaningful to you?

Speaker 1:

So it was actually way before grad school or any kind of higher education, Because I remember growing up being the sibling that everybody went to because I was the wise one, or everybody wanted someone to hold their secrets and they just so happened to come and tell me I mean, I never asked for any of these things. People just show up and trust me and just want to talk about things, and I'm just there, and I was, I don't know, I was just there for people, you know, and I say that not in a ooh, I'm there for everyone. But just like people seem to trust me and felt comfortable and they just come and talk, and then I realized, you know what? It's really nice to see these people feel safe. It felt nice. And you know, when you see that everybody wants that feeling, Everybody I want to feel safe. It's a nice feeling.

Speaker 1:

And then I graduated from high school and I remember thinking I want to do psychology, but at the time I knew I wasn't ready to go study abroad. As a person I wasn't ready for that move and I was still very invested in my equestrian training and so there wasn't any psychology degrees or programs in Kuwait. So I opted for the second best thing, which was anthropology One of the best decisions of my life. I loved studying anthropology. It was fascinating. I love culture and I love learning all about differences.

Speaker 1:

But during my time I did have a couple of friends come very close to not wanting to be here anymore, you know, and they reached out. It happened a couple of times and they reached out and I thought, wow, like this is a make or break moment for people. You know, people do come close to that deciding they're done. And if you can be there for someone and if they can change their minds and they don't have to keep feeling that way and you can change someone's life, that is by far the most incredible thing I have ever been honored to be a part of. So that I understand a lot more now as an adult who is a psychologist.

Speaker 2:

But at the time it was like yeah, yeah, and what an honor to you. Know. I don't know if you know, but in September in the U? S is um suicide awareness month. Yeah, I do, and yeah and um, you know it's. It touches so many people's life but yet there's such a stigma around speaking about it. It touches so many people's life but yet there's such a stigma around speaking about it Absolutely. And so what a amazing thing that you're able, that you were able to do, even prior to any of your training that you have. That speaks to the gift you have that you've been given, to be a safe place for people to cut, to share, to say like I'm not okay right now. We need people in our lives who we can go to and say I'm not okay right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. Everybody does, everybody, everyone does.

Speaker 2:

Everyone so okay, so you did anthropology. What happened after that? Okay, covid.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, it was great. Covid was, I know, devastating for so many people, but it was also life-changing for many others. And so COVID happened just as I graduated from my bachelor's degree, and so I had all this time at home alone and I was like, oh no, I want this, I want to do this. And so after that, I spent my time in lockdown researching the programs I wanted to attend, and I looked for programs in the UK, mainly because there's a little bit of my own heritage there. My mom is British and my dad is from Kuwait. So I was like, okay, let's see what all that's about.

Speaker 1:

And you know, I got all motivated. I thought I was going to run away forever and just go I don't know like explore the world. But no, quite frankly, I was looking for clinical psychology programs and I found what was, at the time for me, the best option, which was the University of Edinburgh in Scotland. I decided, as soon as lockdown was over, I was going to start a program there, and so that's where I did my master's degree in clinical psychology. Okay, and how?

Speaker 2:

long did that take? How long was that program for you?

Speaker 1:

That program was a one-year program. It was a conversion program as well, so it was basically one that would be very adaptable for many students, and what they basically did was cram four years into one, so it was super, super intense oh that's intense. Yeah, it was really intense, but I loved it. I loved the field so much that it didn't feel so much like work. You know, it didn't feel the studying part wasn't so challenging because you have the passion.

Speaker 2:

And when did you start to work with clients or patients? Do you call them patients or clients? What do you refer them to?

Speaker 1:

Clients primarily. We call them clients. It differs from clinic to clinic and place to place, but for me I just call them clients. But I finished my program and then I did a one year fellowship, postgraduate fellowship. So that was a training year where I'd get all my practical experience and I'd be under supervision. And then after that I started seeing my first few clients, still under a full year of supervision, because when you're training to be a therapist you have to record all your sessions and you have to, of course, with the consent of your clients, but you have to be under a strict supervision to make sure you're not messing up.

Speaker 2:

So um, yeah, did you do that? Was that in Scotland as well? That part of you?

Speaker 1:

That fellowship was done at a clinic in Kuwait. That's where I trained. So yeah, at a clinic in Kuwait.

Speaker 2:

That's where I trained. So, yeah, okay, very cool. What did you learn about your mom's heritage while you were in Scotland?

Speaker 1:

Well, actually I love Scottish people so much. They are so chill, so easygoing, they are so funny, like all the time. I was so happy to be friends with people who are Scottish. But my mother is actually from North Yorkshire, so it's actually north in the UK, but north, so it's closer to the Scottish border than places like London, for example. Uk, but north, so it's closer to the Scottish border than places like London, for example. So there's more in common between the northerners and the Scots. But I had also visited the UK multiple times prior to that master's degree because I'd go visit my grandparents who are still there in North Yorkshire and so, yeah, I'd spent a little bit of time there before and it was kind of nice to interact again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's cool. I mean it's nice that you were able to do that, you know and that that was even available to you. So, yeah, well, so you know. Thanks for giving us a little bit of background on. You know where you started from just this young girl going to college doing anthropology and then going to Scotland and doing your clinical psychology program, coming back to Kuwait for your fellowship, to Scotland and doing your clinical psychology program, coming back to Kuwait for your fellowship.

Speaker 2:

I can imagine how intense that was, but how rewarding it must be, so rewarding as well of just you know you're really doing, doing important work, and so tell me a little bit about. So tell me a little bit about you know the kind of client that you're best with.

Speaker 1:

Who is your, you know, kind of ideal person that you really feel like you can work well with? So this one hits differently because I found that the people who resonate with me most and the people I resonate with most are actually not too different from my gender or age group. So it's the women between the age of, let's say, 21 to about 40. I know that's a lot wider than a specific number, but I resonate so deeply with them, you know, because, especially if they're women who also feel disempowered in any kind of way or have had a tough time being authentic, who have had a tough time and have been shut down a lot in their upbringing where they couldn't express or they couldn't be or they were exposed to so much judgment and criticism, when you can see that they have so much light within and they have so much potential but they're just ridden with guilt and shame.

Speaker 1:

I love working with those women because I love the moment they realize their power. I love the moment they realize, oh, I found myself again. You know, that moment that empowerment is so incredible. It's so incredible to see them come in with severe depression and then two, three years later living their dream like living their best life and it takes a lot of pain and a lot of bravery to get there, but it's so rewarding for them, you know. And then they go out and they are the role models for other women who are also in a similar situation. You know they have younger sisters or they have friends or they go out on their speakers or anything, literally any kind of career. It spreads. You know it goes what you do, it goes somewhere.

Speaker 2:

You know ripple effect yeah yes, so I'm curious about, um, what is it like for a woman in Kuwait to seek out therapy or to seek out help? What is that like? For what is that? What is the woman's experience in wanting help and being able to reach out for help?

Speaker 1:

So I'd say women and men, both in Kuwait, um, would be exposed. Everybody in in a collective society, let's say any collectivist culture, will be exposed to some kind of stigma when it comes to reaching out for mental health. The reason is the science behind it. Is collectivist cultures run off of group harmony and group conformity? Right, right, so you don't drift from the crowd and if you have issues, well, you kind of hide them as best as you can, right, you want to be like everyone else because conformity is what is celebrated most. So we also have a lot of group morals or values based off of the honor system and making your family proud and making the culture, not the culture. But you would want to fit in let's put it that way and do good, right so?

Speaker 2:

if you yeah, can you say a little bit more about that, about what the honor culture is?

Speaker 1:

Right. So when it comes to collectivist cultures and the honor and pride basically because it's a group run kind of community it's very important that whatever you do, whatever actions you take, are not just a reflection of your own decisions, but your family will take on those decisions as well or those actions will be reflected on them as well. So when you make any decision, you're kind of thinking twice, three times, four times about will this make anybody not proud? If you get what I mean, like, is this going to upset someone? So you're kind of making sure that you keep that harmony, you know. So if you're struggling with something like depression or anxiety and it gets in the way of your functioning or it gets in the way of how you show up within the group, then that could cause some disturbance.

Speaker 1:

So a lot of times and for the longest time although now things have changed for the longest time people would keep their mental health issues to themselves, or they'll keep it within the family and no one speaks about it, because it would have brought shame on the community or on the family as a whole. Right, it's still somewhat stigmatized, uh, the concept of seeking mental health. Some people still can't console with their families they still can't be and say, let's say to their mom or their dad hey, I'm really struggling with depression and I'm seeing a therapist. That would probably bring a lot of grief at home. Right, it would make for some families. It would make the family very upset, like you know. Why are you going and telling someone else?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So what I hear you describing and please correct me if I'm wrong is that it's an individual's experience is a reflection of the entire family. So if one person, say, is struggling with depression and that were to, let's say, get out, then the whole family then has this mark on them of, you know, depression or struggle or not being able to hold it together in some way, and that I can see. That's a lot of pressure in and of itself to maintain a um, I don't know, like a you know, status quo in some way, or an image, an image in some way of like this is the image I have to uphold. I have to stay in line with the image, um, that that we're okay and I can. I can really certainly relate to that differently, obviously, you know, but it was for for me growing up. It was, you know, it was certainly the message of you know, we're okay, it's nobody's business. You know it was. It wasn't that it was wrong to tell anyone, but it was just like no one needs to know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, stigma, yeah Right.

Speaker 2:

And so I learned from a really young age just to smile and pretend like everything was okay. Yeah, I wasn't okay, yeah. So I can relate to that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so another thing we talked about in our little Zoom conversation was the inner narrative, and that's a big part of the work that I do as well is this rewriting the inner narrative, and so let's talk about that?

Speaker 1:

How do you describe to someone? You know what is the concept of an inner narrative, right? So I love to ask this in therapy sometimes, but not exactly those words. So when I'm getting to know a new client and we're beginning to work together, I like to ask this question how do you think people perceive you? Because it sounds like what do you think people think about you? But, quite frankly, what I'm really asking is what do you think about you, what do you think of you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, when you ask someone what do you think of you, they won't know how to answer. But when you ask someone, what do you think people think of you? That's going to be a direct answer, because what they think people think of you, that's going to be a direct answer because what they think people think of them is really often, many times, a reflection of what they think of themselves. So the inner narrative is very much one story right Along the way. How did this story develop and change and who influences the story? And a lot of times the story is written by the voices of the critic, and the voices are often mother, father, caregiver. You know that friend in second grade who said this, this, this. It's shaped in many different ways.

Speaker 2:

I guess you could say I love that question Because you're right, it's sometimes easier to describe what we think other people think than really being able to go inward. Some people have an easier time with it than others, and that's been in my own work, something I've had to be aware of, because I have a deeper inner focus, naturally just as my temperament, and so if someone says, ask me like, oh, what do you feel?

Speaker 1:

Or how are you?

Speaker 2:

feeling I can answer. All day long. I can answer that question. I never didn't know what I wanted to talk about. When I went to therapy, it was always like this is what is going on, this is what I feel like I need, and in some ways it's like the therapist's dream, where it's like, oh, this person really has awareness and all of that, but that comes with its own problems as well. Yes, right. And so what I've had to learn is doing this inner narrative work with people. It is shaping the question in a way that resonates with them, because their question resonates with me differently. Question resonates with me differently, and so it's finding you know what? Um, how does it land specifically for the person that's sitting in front of me? You know, I? I often would say you know what is the story you tell yourself about, who you are, and sometimes there's just this blank look of like. I don't even know what you mean by that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:

That's okay, yep, that, yes. Yes, that's that's about. Okay, right, yeah, and so that that, as I've grown in my own work, um had to learn like, oh, just because I can answer that question doesn't mean other people can answer that question, you know, and um. So I love the way you frame it and I probably will borrow that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, because it helps. Go for it. Go for it. It's a really important question. And listen, everybody wants to try, but a lot of them don't know how.

Speaker 2:

Like, you said you know, yeah, right, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, yes, yes. So what happens when a woman starts to do this deeper inner work? That they start, they answer this question that you've asked them what do you think other people think of you? And then they start to maybe see, like, oh, this is actually what I think of me, so what? And then starting to rewrite that into a more empowering, life-giving story.

Speaker 1:

What happens to a woman when she starts to tell herself this new story, everything she ever dreamed, everything she ever dreamed? I mean, there are lots of women who are looking for a long-term relationship. They want to get married, they want to have kids. It's just not happening. Nobody wants me, I'm not desirable, I can't be with people, I can't commit All these different things. This is just one section of life. There's other things like oh, I'm not successful at my job, I can never get this promotion, this, that and the other. And then it's like, just like that.

Speaker 1:

You start to realize that really down to the core, when you recognize your own limitations and rewrite your inner story, as it were, you start to find all those opportunities you were seeking to begin with and once upon a time, you would find external reasons as to why they weren't working, because this guy isn't nice, or that job is just not helping me, or this, that and the other. And then suddenly it becomes, yeah, I can do this. Like there are still challenges. Let's not sugarcoat it. There are challenges, but I can. I can do this, I'm going to, I'm going to do this. And you know what the best part is if I can't do this. It's okay, cause I'm enough. That's the key.

Speaker 2:

That's the key. That is the key, and I see, too, that it builds up that quiet confidence. That it builds up that quiet confidence Like you. Just what I heard you just describing is that quiet confidence of like I'm okay. I'm okay Even if the things around me are maybe not going the way I want them to, or I'm coming up against roadblocks or challenges. Like I'm okay and and this doesn't define me or who I am it's just something that's happening in the moment. What can I learn from it? Yeah, right, being more flexible in the way we approach challenges. Not so like a lot of people starting out, I mean, and I was one of them, and that's why I tell, like I do this work, because it worked for me.

Speaker 2:

That's why right, Like more rigid, like just rigid and defensive and and you know all of those things, and it's like and I, I've there's a new sense of home inside of my own body, of just like I'm okay, you know I have what it takes to handle whatever comes my way. Yes, absolutely, and I see that happening in women and it's so powerful you know, to just to just know, like you know what, it's okay for me to choose me.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, this is the thing, especially in collectivist cultures, because it's not the priority. The whole is the priority, and so collective cultures often have a lot of people who struggle with people pleasing, a lot of people pleasing. So the focus was never on you to begin with, because in order to survive, you must make sure that everybody else is okay and happy with you, right? So it's like unwiring all that and untangling it and then relearning what it means to love the self again, fathoming the idea. That's difficult.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting that you say that If you were to put a definition to collectivist culture, what would the definition of that be For people who maybe don't understand, or just what would be like a working definition of that, if there? Is one maybe and maybe there isn't.

Speaker 1:

maybe there isn't one because it's, you know, a large concept that exist within communities where the values of the group are more important than the values of the individual and the importance of group harmony is top tier, followed by everything else later. So as long as those needs are looked after, after the the whole, then you can begin to see the minute details of the self or the individual. So like, as long as it doesn't, as long as dinner is cooked for the whole family and everybody's fed and happy, then maybe at the end of the night I can have my bowl of ice cream, maybe, just maybe, right, okay, they need to be okay first.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, okay, I understand what you're saying. So, because this is the culture that you have come up in, how have you experienced your own rewriting of your own story and what is the work that you have done for you to come into the I'm okay, I'm enough.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I face that stuff still every single day. I mean, you still, you know, I've been working on my own, I have terrible people pleasing, or I had, let's say, I had terrible people pleasing. It still exists, just not to the same degree, you know. But I didn't really realize how ingrained my people-pleasing was up until about five years ago and I started to wake up and I started to realize and I'd noticed that I'd become codependent, sometimes on friends or, let's say, my parents, and not dependent, as in I want them to do things for me.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I can read the room like a radar, like an x-ray. If someone's not okay, my nervous system knows all about it. And my nervous system is flaring up right now like, oh, I'm nervous, I'm anxious, he's in a bad mood, what are we going to do about it? So it took a lot. It took a lot of grounding, it took a lot of self-reflection, it took a lot of sitting in the discomfort of someone not being okay with you, like daring Sitting in the discomfort of someone not being okay with you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, daring Sitting in the discomfort of someone not being okay with you, like that is key and it's so incredibly hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because it's. It actually became fun, like it almost be like I really, really tried I'm not joking Like I had to practice a lot, but it became like like a challenge with myself. I'd sit there and I'd just be like, ooh, how much of this can I tolerate? They're pissed off and I'm not going to go and appease them, I'm not going to go apologize for something I didn't do. I'm going to sit here and feel so uncomfortable until it passes. And I have like vivid memories of moments where I really put myself to the test and at the end of sitting there in the discomfort, my inner child is just like smiling from ear to ear because nothing happened to me, I was safe, nobody did anything.

Speaker 2:

I'm fine, you were still alive. You're still alive, I'm alive, right.

Speaker 1:

And I can advocate for myself what. That's a thing Like I don't need to, I don't need to make sure you're okay, I can just oh, no, so that and that took time, like a lot of time, like still takes time, still struggle with it sometimes, you know, but it's so rewarding, so rewarding yeah.

Speaker 2:

So someone, let's say for a woman who sees herself in that story, in the people pleasing story, that they're like yes, I'm definitely a people pleaser. I'm definitely what you're just describing of this compulsion to go and make things better, compulsion to go and make sure that the other person has what they need, and all that energy underneath that. What would you tell a woman who is just starting out on the? I think I'm ready to take a look at this. I think I'm ready to start to figure out this for my life. Where do they start? I know that most all starts with paying attention. Yes, we get that right, but what are they paying attention to? What should they be specifically looking for in the paying attention? What should they be specifically looking for in the paying attention?

Speaker 1:

Right, right, that's a great question, and I find I translate this to each person differently, depending on their level of awareness. And I don't mean awareness about what happens in the moment, I mean connectedness to self, right? Yes? So with someone who, let's say, is like you, wendy, who has a real connectedness to self, with someone who, let's say, is like you, wendy, who has a real connectedness to self, I would say something like how does this feel in your body when you're sitting in that space with that person and they dismiss your feelings or they expose you to emotional violence? How does it feel?

Speaker 1:

Now, if I said that to you, you'd immediately be able to go like, ooh, it feels awful on the inside right. But for somebody, let's say, who's not there yet, who is just teetering on the edge of self-awareness, I'd say no, do you like your job? Do you like? No, my boss is really, really annoying and they make me feel small and they make me feel so. Then we go like when was the first time you ever felt small? And this is different from just building awareness. This is actually knowing where the inner wound started. Where is it, how did it start and what did you make of it once upon a time?

Speaker 2:

That's in the trauma work that you're doing right. It's identifying the early traumas. And sometimes they're so subtle, fatima right, sometimes they're very subtle Absolutely, and they get hidden and they get deeply buried. Yeah, they get buried.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they do, they really really do.

Speaker 2:

And then we wonder why we're having struggle in life with relationships or work or whatever it is we have to be willing to. We have to be willing to ask those hard questions of ourselves and going okay, wait a minute, where did this begin?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what did happen? You know?

Speaker 1:

and that takes a lot of bravery. It takes a lot of bravery.

Speaker 2:

It sure does, it does, it does. Well, let me see, tell me about. Can you give me an example or to share a story of one of your clients, obviously without giving any kind of detail, where you saw them go through this transformation? What did that real healing look like from your perspective, from the therapist perspective, looking at the client?

Speaker 1:

Not to sound like a cliche therapist here, but I'm going to sound like a cliche therapist. It literally looked like from surviving to thriving, literally like that. And it doesn't happen overnight. It happens in these bursts of anger sometimes, or these bursts of sadness and it's like why am I so sad? I don't nothing happened. You're processing, you finally feel safe enough to process, it's finally happening.

Speaker 1:

Or you're angry and you just especially people who struggle with grief. People who struggle with grief especially when they have their own kind of people pleasing background or they're the fixer of the family. They are too busy doing all the picking up of pieces for the whole family, right? They're too busy making sure everybody else is okay. And then there's a lot of anger that comes out in processing this when they actually sit down and they're like I didn't even get to grieve this loved one Because I've been spending all my time looking after everyone else and it's not that everybody else asked them to look after them, but that's the role that was assumed for them since day one.

Speaker 1:

You get angry for yourself, not at people, but for yourself. It's like a self-advocacy thing. And then after the anger comes a lot of fatigue, like they are exhausted, and that's what I mean when I say from surviving to thriving. They don't even realize they're in survival mode because that was the default for the longest time, and then thriving looks like oh, I've been in bed for three days, but I'm okay with it, I'm not feeling guilty, I'm actually resting because my body's exhausted from doing all of this for all of these years. You know it's, it's incredible, it really is.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, I love what you're saying and and yeah, of course it does sound a little cliche, but I use that cliche all the time going from surviving to thriving, because it actually is the transformation. Right, it is it is, it is. When you are in. I mean, I lived more of my life than not in survival mode and I didn't know I was in survival mode.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I didn't know it until I got to the other side, or started to get to the other side of it, and so I think that more people are walking around in survival mode than they realize. Oh, yeah. Right and the shoulders yeah, for me it looked a lot like I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. I mean, it was kind of like this, just a repeat of oh, smile and pretend like everything is okay.

Speaker 2:

And I was incredibly unhappy Smile and wave, yeah, smile and wave, and I was incredibly unhappy. Yeah, on the inside, but I couldn't show that on the outside because that would make people uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:

Yes, they don't know what to do when you're not okay.

Speaker 2:

Right, and so my early story was don't be too emotional, don't be too happy and don't be too sad, just everything is okay. And when I showed up with emotion, it made the people around me feel uncomfortable, and so I learned how to suppress the expression of emotion. Right, I completely get that, but I'm a very emotional person. I'm a very sensitive person, and so a lot of my own work has been learning how to be okay with showing my own emotion. Oh, I bet that off, letting people be uncomfortable with me.

Speaker 2:

That's really really tough, yes, and that has, you know, sadly ended relationships and it has people can handle it and you know, and it's like I'm not going to, I'm not going to make you feel comfortable anymore.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, because it's not, it's not authentic.

Speaker 2:

No, and it's hurting me Like it's it's really kill. It's like it's killing the spirit inside, literally, really kill. It's like it's killing the spirit inside, literally, literally. Yes, yeah, um, so that's just, you know, and it's even hard to, it's hard, for sometimes still hard to talk about that.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I bet I really do imagine that this is one of the biggest challenges you must have gone through and, quite frankly, hats off to you, because one thing is for certain if somebody's only with you for the version that is appropriate or convenient for them, then they don't want you for you, they just want you for what you can do for them.

Speaker 2:

I know, yeah, and I deeply want people to want to know all of me. I deeply desire that, and so there's a A challenge. Yes, it's a challenge, yes, it's a challenge, and so part of the work, too, is letting other people be who they are as well, and some people are just not able to meet me in that space, and that's okay, that's okay, and that's okay. That's okay, and that's okay. You know, that is okay, it shows.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, authenticity is the deepest healer. At least this is what I will always say. Being in your most authentic state is the most healing thing you can ever do for yourself. It will top any psychiatric medication or any form of therapy. Being authentic is the therapy, and if you cannot function in that way, then you are forever suppressed, and that's not good. That will always cause some kind of issues.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, speaking of authenticity, how do you work through the process of someone who believes that their authentic self is their wounded self?

Speaker 1:

Okay, I love that. So I've not actually had anybody say that before, but I have had it show up in different ways. So I've known some people who are so depressed but like persistent depressive disorder, so like depression is the default. It's almost a personality type. Not that there is such a thing in that way, but I remember having this. Yeah, I remember just having this conversation with someone and saying you know, it almost sounds to me like you're protective over your depressive state, over being depressed. You sound like you are almost proud of it, like it's something you safeguard. And I remember that person saying to me like these parts of me have helped me so much in my life. Right, and I'm I'm a deeply strong believer in parts work. I do a lot of parts work myself.

Speaker 2:

I was just going to say I was going to, I didn't internal family systems.

Speaker 1:

I'm I hear that language.

Speaker 2:

I hear the language you're using.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love, I love AFS. It's literally my favorite modality. I mix and match all modalities, but that one is always one that's going to come up, especially when I hear a client say it's the part of me, and I'm like, okay, I know what we're saying. Right, it's like if you believe that your authentic self is your wounded self, then so be it. That is a part of you. And who am I to come in and tell you that's wrong? That's not my place to do that. If that is a part of you that's very strongly in the forefront, then we will embrace that part of you and we will get to know all the other parts of you.

Speaker 1:

So it usually leaves people a bit perplexed, you know, when they're trying to use, by the way, when someone comes up and goes like, no, my wounded part is my authentic self. I just, you know, I salute that defensive part because that's the part that's showing up to protect. In that moment it's like, that's the part that's like, ah, you are not going to try and, you know, get underneath my skin. I am here to protect this self and I'm not going to give in. So embrace it. If that is what's showing up, okay, let's go it's, it's something you're proud of or you're something you're carrying and something you're not ready to let go of. Stories change, but if your story is not meant to change now, then so be it. I'm here with you in that. I'm not here to force change.

Speaker 2:

And that's such a powerful approach, a powerful posture to have of. You know, everyone is on their own journey and people come into healing if that's what they're wanting to do in different places at different times. Wanting to do in different places at different times. It's not a linear process. I tell people, look, it's not about getting on the healing treadmill and just. It's sometimes fast, sometimes slow, it's sometimes stagnant, it's sometimes 10 steps forward and five steps back and it takes you all over the place. You know what you thought I mean, I see this in my own life things I thought that I had, you know, quote unquote healed from, even though I don't know. You know I don't necessarily love that language. But and then they are there again and it's like, oh, wait a minute.

Speaker 2:

I thought I had done a little bit more work on this than maybe I actually had, and it's an opportunity for me to revisit that, and I find that it's not as intense, right, when it comes around. When it comes around again, it's not as intense, it doesn't last as long and all of those things and and so I love that. I love your approach to that. I love your approach to that. I didn't know that you were a champion for IFS, although I do hear that now in the language that you're using.

Speaker 1:

Love it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know I'm fascinated by that and I've never officially done any, I have not had IFS treatment, but I've done some of the practices just on my own, walking myself through it, and even that, even in my immature way of doing that, it was incredibly helpful. It's incredible To be curious about. Okay, well, what is the story of that part? What does it need? What's it asking of me? And then, and then introducing the language into my own life of like, of, of, you know, the self-leadership of. Oh wait, when Wendy, full functioning adult, has some, has some power here to be like I hear you, I see you, I know you're trying to help me and protect me.

Speaker 2:

Can we work together with this In that conversation? Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yes, absolutely, you sound like you really did explore and, by the way, it's very, very challenging to do so hats off to you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I just do it with myself because I haven't, you know, the Richard Schwartz book, right? I'm drawing a blank on the name of it now. Body Keeps the Core no, no bad parts, all right, okay, no, no bad parts, all right, okay, no, no bad parts, right, right. And he outlined some of his kind of easy exercises that really anyone can do if they're willing to go there with themselves, but and so, yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2:

So, thank you. As we wrap up here, what is a word or message that you want to leave with the listeners people who are listening or anyone who feels disconnected from themselves but they want to begin again. What is a message you want people to hear from you?

Speaker 1:

Wow, that's a very interesting question as we wrap up, just considering everything we said today, I think one of the things I like to say to people who don't really know themselves yet, but know there's something off and there's something they want to work on or they want to meet self again, they want to return back to the self or get to know themselves to begin with. And whether you have kids or you don't, this is something I always say. It's like where you are now, what you're putting up with now and what you're dealing with. Would you want this for your son or your daughter, and why?

Speaker 1:

Because the reason I say it that way is a lot of people have become very numb or are putting themselves second class to something, so they'll put up with anxiety, they'll put up with depression, they'll put up with this, that and the other, they'll be burnt out, they'll work three jobs, they'll do it all because it's me, it's fine, I'll take care of me, just so they can take care of other people. But this question would you allow this to be the life of your son or your daughter? This question gets people to really connect with the inner child or at least to recognize a part of them that might be hurting.

Speaker 2:

It's a beautiful question. It's a beautiful question. It's tough, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for your wisdom and your you know willingness to share the work that you do. Um, I really enjoyed our conversation. I did, yeah. Where can people find you or connect with you or or follow the work that you're doing?

Speaker 1:

well, I'd be honored to have anybody who's on instagram and is willing to search for the name soulful psych fatima, one word. That's where you can find me and you can drop me any dms you'd like, and I'm very'm very much happy to chat on there as well.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, great yeah, and I'll put that in the notes too. So if you know someone clicks on the podcast, they can just click on that. I'll take them right to your Instagram page and and they can follow you there. I love the. I love the content that you put on Instagram.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, Wendy. Thank you so much. I try and keep it real. Yeah, you do.

Speaker 2:

You do. It's such a cool vibe, like I said in the beginning, but it's more than just like a cool vibe, it's real, like you just radiate authenticity. From my perspective, you radiate authenticity and I'm drawn to that and I think that's why I was drawn to you and to your page and I have really enjoyed our conversation. Would love to do it again sometime. Yes, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for being here and we'll talk soon.

Speaker 1:

Yes, we will. Thank you so much for having me. Your questions have been mind blowing. It's given me a lot to think about this weekend and I actually cannot wait for us to chat again. Thank you so much.