Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life
Welcome to Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life — a podcast that brings personality wisdom into everyday moments. Hosted by life and relationship coach Wendy Busby, each episode offers honest conversations, real-life stories, and practical tips for your everyday life. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or deep in your growth journey, this space invites you to explore who you are, how you relate, and what it means to live with more clarity, compassion, and confidence. Tune in, share with a friend, and keep becoming Uniquely You.
Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life
Beyond Boxes: A 37-Year Marriage Journey Through the Enneagram
Chuck and Linda Lesem share their 37-year marriage journey and how discovering the Enneagram transformed their relationship by giving them a language to understand each other's patterns. Their story reveals how complementary personality types can create both challenges and beautiful balance when partners learn to appreciate their fundamental differences.
• Chuck (Type One) and Linda (Type Two) met at a pizza parlor after a missed introduction
• They navigated early relationship differences without personality frameworks for their first 20 years together
• The Enneagram provided language to make conflicts "less personal" by understanding type patterns
• Their different instinctual subtypes (social One and self-preservation Two) explain many relationship dynamics
• Chuck brings structure, organization and stability while Linda brings relationship focus and "magic"
• Their contrasting parenting styles created beneficial balance for their daughters
• Doing Enneagram work together revealed new layers of vulnerability even after decades of marriage
• Understanding personality patterns helps couples realize people aren't "trying to annoy you" but genuinely see the world differently
• Both recommend couples learn the Enneagram early in relationships to navigate differences compassionately
• Finding growth together while honoring differences strengthens long-term relationships
Love is not about sameness, it's about understanding the beautiful and challenging ways we're different and choosing to grow together anyways.
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I think the Enneagram has been one of the most powerful pieces that we share because in reflection sort of what you're moving towards is when you think about it, I can see what happened. Through the lens of the Enneagram I can see my two showing up, I can see the one. I can see why that would happen. I understand it much better why that would happen.
Speaker 2:I understand it much better and it's super helpful for providing a language in that it becomes a little bit less personal. It's like, oh well, we both see a one and we see a two, and we know how a one and a two it exists. And like, oh well, this thing that made you so angry before, well, now, when you look at it from that lens, well, it totally makes sense. And you're like, oh okay, I'll get it. And then it just lowers the energy around.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Uniquely you, the podcast where self-discovery meets everyday life. I'm your host, wendy Busby, a life and relationship coach who believes that you were never meant to fit into a box. My mission is to help you grow with more clarity, compassion and confidence. Thank you for listening. Today, I have the joy of sitting down with Chuck and Linda Lessam, a couple whose relationship is both inspiring and deeply rooted in growth. We're going to talk about their journey together, what they've learned over the years and how discovering the Enneagram has brought new insight and connection into their marriage. I can't wait for you to hear their story. Hi, chuck, hi Linda, so happy to see both of you.
Speaker 1:Hi Wendy, hi Wendy yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I've been wanting to do this for a while, so I'm glad that we have been able to make it happen. So let's just start out with a little get to know you questions for everyone who's listening how long have you been married together?
Speaker 2:We have been married. I think in October will be our 37th anniversary and we knew each other three years before that, so a pretty frightening number of 40. You know it's like at work. I think about being married longer than most of my employees have been on the planet.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's a long time and quite an accomplishment and something to be celebrated and honored. So I know that many people, when they hear that people have been married for many years like you guys have close to 40 years now it's like oh well, how did you make it work? What was your secret? Those are the types of questions that people ask, and so it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to both of you today, knowing already a little bit of your story. But so tell me about how you guys met.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, it was a wild story in a way, because we had somebody who we both knew wanted to set us up and he had invited me to join a group that was going, so it seemed very low stakes, it was going to be easy peasy to go to a football game you're going to be correcting me Tailgate party.
Speaker 3:Tailgate party.
Speaker 2:Okay, stanford tailgate party.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:And I had been at the time just madly in love with somebody else. So I was kind of like I'm not so sure, I want to go. But I said, okay, I guess I'll go and he goes. I think there's this guy, I think you're going to really like him, and, as it goes, I ended up not going. I bumped into somebody that I was crazy about the night before and I was just having the time of my life, so I didn't go.
Speaker 1:And then, a whole year later, my girlfriend, paula, invited me to see Zazu Pits, which are probably not even existing anymore, and it was in Palo Alto and I said, sure, let's go. And so we went and we went out for dinner before and we're walking through Palo Alto and there was a pizza parlor and you don't see this anymore, but there was a pizza parlor and they were throwing the dough up in the air, and so Paul was standing there watching, you know, the dough go up and down, and then out comes the person who had tried to set us up the year before. His name was Tom and he said what are you doing here? What are you two doing here? And I said, oh well, we're going to go see Zazu Pants, what are you doing here? And he said, oh, I'm at that tailgate party that you bailed on last year, linda, and at the time I was sort of more of a free bird and I said, well, any chance that that guy is with you that you wanted to set me up with? And he said, as a matter of fact, he is.
Speaker 1:So I went in and I met Chuck very briefly and I said hi. And he goes oh, can I call you? And it's like, yeah, sure, tom will give you my number. And we went back, paul and I, to have the dinner and then she looks up, she goes is that the guy that we just met for the pizza parlor, weaving in and out of the tables? And it was Chuck. And he came up and he said I don't trust Tom, I just don't know if he's going to be able to give me your number. Can I have it, because I would really like to see you again. And that's how it all started.
Speaker 3:Wow, I have not heard that story. No, you were going to get her number, chuck you saw her and you're like I'm getting yes.
Speaker 2:I definitely didn't trust Tom.
Speaker 3:And you didn't trust Tom. So what was it, Chuck, that attracted you to Linda when you first met her?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess it's the best way to say it. It's like a look and a feel, because I think at that time I was actually dating. I mean, it's like one time in my life that I was dating multiple people, so it was like what Linda's like.
Speaker 1:This is new information.
Speaker 2:I have different people. Yeah, I just it's so funny Cause, like what I really remember, I remember her shoes. She had these pink shoes on that had little bow things on them. And then I remember her hair. She had like kind of curly, like ring curls going down a bit, and so it was just like, yeah, I like the look.
Speaker 2:And you know, sometimes you just have the feeling, yeah, I like this Cute girl, cute girl, okay, so this is good, I just want to make sure I get her number. Yeah, and I have to say that you know it was a tailgate party and then we were at the pizza parlor, so there might have been a little buzz going on.
Speaker 3:Possibly A little liquid courage. That's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2:Which I definitely. I remember that day so well because there definitely was some liquid courage and I got home pretty late and the next day I wrote a century. That was very painful.
Speaker 3:Interesting. What about for you, Linda, when you first met Chuck?
Speaker 1:He was really cute. He was cute and I just, you know, I love that he had the courage to come over and track me down. It took a certain amount of you know, chutzpah to be able to do that. So I, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:Why not, yeah, okay. So then, how long after you guys met, did you get married? Well, you said you had known each other for three years.
Speaker 2:Almost exactly. I think our first date was October 25th and our wedding is October 23rd.
Speaker 3:Good, I love that. Well, thanks for that. Just gives us a little bit of you know, get to know you questions, and so I do want to ask you guys about the Enneagram, but first think pre-Enneagram. Well, okay, First let me ask you how long had you been married before you learned about the Enneagram and started using it as a relationship tool? Let me just preface it there and then I'll go back and ask some questions.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's probably around let's just call it somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 years ago that I heard of the Enneagram. And Linda has a friend, diana, that's really into the Enneagram, and so they were always talking about it and I was just listening and they were just constantly talking about people and what might they be, and so it was that that was the introduction. And then it was a few years later where I just listened more and it was very interesting. I liked the model. We use different models at work. We'd never used the Enneagram at work, but I learned a little bit about it.
Speaker 2:And then we started going to this woman named Polly, right, and Polly would have these parties and she would have these panels and she would host a panel of fives and so there'd be three fives and they would be talking about their experience of five similarity. And she was an amazing woman, polly, and the vibe. There'd be like 30 people at her house for these panels. And then there was a potluck dinner and we went to a few of those and then we went to a one-day seminar in the city with Polly that was about the Enneagram, and then there was also yoga there, and then I think from then it just kept leveling up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's cool. That sounds like a great way to learn about it, up with a party and potluck.
Speaker 1:I think that was the very first time I heard of. The Enneagram, though, was actually when we were in India and, as crazy as this sounds, we were camping on the Ganges Like. Now that I think about it, I can't even believe we're like camping in India, but we were, and Diana happened to be there. She was from Walnut Creek, from the Bay Area, but she was married to an Indian man and she was there and she'd gone every summer. And the minute I met her, she met my daughter too and she said, oh, your daughter and my son have similar energy, and I had no idea her. She met my daughter too and she said, oh, your daughter and my son have similar energy, and I had no idea what she was talking. She was an energy healer and she said well, I'm talking a little bit about the Enneagram, and that was the first time I ever heard the word.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's been quite a while, but I didn't do anything about it at that time.
Speaker 3:So it had been a good 20 years into your marriage and relationship before you started even knowing about it and learning about it. Okay, so that's really interesting. But there was a lot of personality models.
Speaker 2:So Linda has done a lot of work with the Myers-Briggs and so there was a lot of discussions around that and so it was kind of an discussions around that and so it was kind of an elevation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. And so, before we get too far into it, do you want to each share what your Enneagram type is?
Speaker 1:I'm a type two, I'm a self-pressed type two. Self-pressed two.
Speaker 2:And I am a social one.
Speaker 3:Social one. Yeah, yes, self-pressed two, social one, love it Okay. So, thinking back to early on in your relationship, pre Myers-Briggs, pre Enneagram young, young in love, young in marriage, all the things what was your first big disagreement and how did you work through that in light of knowing your personality patterns now?
Speaker 2:We were thinking about that and we figured out what I think was our first kind of big fight, and it's rather hilarious in that it also relates to one of the other questions you had out there, which is you know, how does Enneagram go into your life now? So we met in October, just the week before that October 25th date, and then Linda came down to my house in LA, where I grew up, for Thanksgiving and it's a fairly crazy event. My mom would have like 30 people there and just it's quite a lot of chaos. But before Thanksgiving one of my sisters and I, linda, we went out for a run in the neighborhood and Linda didn't want to really run, so she wanted to walk, and then she got lost. Want to really run, so she wanted to walk and then she got lost. And so it's.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like it. It just ties into the couple of the themes, like in my mind, okay, we went down one block and over the concept of getting lost, like I just didn't know. And then also it's just like in the family. The whole aspect, part of like why it developed into a bit of a fight is there's a lot of chaotic energy in my family, like it's lots of doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. Nobody slows down, and so you know that theme runs through, you know continues to run through around. Okay, well, can we stop and rest, or what's going on here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I sat on. I gave up because I couldn't find them and I sat on the sidewalk and I just sat there and I'm like I don't know where I am. I've never been here. It was in Woodland Hills in LA. Never been here, I have no idea. They just left me. They left me here. I'm just going to sit on this sidewalk and hopefully eventually somebody will find me. So that was our very first kind of like argument, although Czech sister just brought it up the last time I saw her, which wasn't that long ago. She's remember that time that we lost you.
Speaker 3:Yes, I do, I do. It was a memorable, memorable moment. It was a memorable moment. So how did you work through that? How were you? Were you, linda, were you able to express that, that you're not okay with that? And Chuck, were you able to express that you're not okay with that? And Chuck were you able to express, like, this is just the way things are, in our very broken ways, that we do that right.
Speaker 2:Linda was definitely able to express that she was not happy about that situation and I think it was just a matter of apology on my part. It didn't lead to any change in behaviors. No.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not that early on, I wouldn't know, no, it was early days. That takes time. That takes time. Yeah, Okay. So, Chuck, being a one right wanting to improve things, make things better. Have you ever tried to improve something that Linda was doing that didn't need improving? But you see it, you're like the difficulty in resisting.
Speaker 2:I think there's like two kind of funny ones that come through with that and they definitely continue so one was when we were first living together.
Speaker 2:You know, you clean, you do the dishes and you put away the glasses and I'm like, okay, you got tall glasses, those go together, short glasses, and those go together, and I'm organizing them. And yeah, that's not not how linda thinks and and so as a one, I just like I now this is very pre-enneagram, but it's like no concept, like how could somebody not see that, right, how could you not? And not think about that? And so that you know, ones can be a little bit rigid and you're like, huh, and it was not till quite a bit later. It's just, somebody described the different personality, different personalities coming into a house, you know, and one walks in and they see the table and they're like, well, that shouldn't be there, and that shouldn't be there and that should be over there, and I need to do this, and I need to do that.
Speaker 2:And the other person comes in and like it's like, it's just not there, they don't see it at all. And so that was finally like a little bit of a light bulb going on. Oh, okay, well, they, she just doesn't see that, like what I see, she is not seeing, and so that was really illuminating. And nor do I care.
Speaker 3:Nor do you care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Both of them. I mean now I do put the glasses in their order, but this is seven years in, so I do do that. But I know I would just like why does it matter? Just put them in, just load them in the cupboard. So that's how it started, this whole.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay. And so, chuck, thinking back, was it hard for you to like, was it that that was wrong? Like that's the wrong way? Absolutely, that is not the right way to do it, and you're wrong, Linda, for not doing it that way right Kind of internal angst that the one can have.
Speaker 2:It's kind of funny. Definitely true about that, that it's right and wrong, and also growing up in my house, like the, I would say the glasses and the dishes were organized in the kitchen, but that was it everything else chaos it's like I was the only one in that house for the first, probably 12 years.
Speaker 2:That was neat. I mean, it was like the dining room table was just piled with stuff and then, like my mom, they entertained a lot and then she would just take all this stuff and throw it in this other bedroom. Oh, okay, it was, but even with that, you know the, the, the dishes and the thing were organized. So, like it's two things, one is a one and I probably came to being a one as a way of organizing that chaos.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the kitchen maybe represented something you could control. Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's. Yeah, it's a little bit of control and it's a little bit of. I really enjoy things being in their place. It there's like a you know, it's like there's a right way to do it, Like we, just we, I just reorganize the garage and I get a lot of pleasure because like, oh well, I'm going to go do this, here's this item and here's this item, and I know where they are and back and again that that kind of feeling of flow is not really in Linda's world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean not to the same extent, to the same extent You're much more focused on the energy flow of people and I am much less attuned to that one-on-one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the relationship the relationship focus of the two, and so that leads me to my question. For you, linda, is being a two and being aware of other people's needs right? There's just an intuitive knowing of this is what this person needs. Do you find yourself offering help to Chuck that maybe he doesn't need, or that he needs but doesn't realize he needs it, and how do you navigate your compulsion to help Chuck?
Speaker 1:Right, you're right, relationship is everything for me. I think about relationship all day long and I do offer help, which is interesting, because totally go to the doctor about that, or are you taking that, or you shouldn't be eating this, or I'm always piping in about things that I think will be helpful, and he doesn't like it. Even when he's sick, he doesn't really love me. Like just going for it, like getting him you know, what can I do? Do you need this or is there something wrong? There's a very short span of how much he likes that, if at all. So that is a disruptive piece between the two of us. It's not ideal, because I feel like this is what I'm meant to do. This is. I see, all these things that could be so helpful and he doesn't want the help.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so what does it feel like when he doesn't accept your help?
Speaker 1:It feels very much like like a classic two would feel. I feel very rejected by it. Um, it's my way of my love language in a way, even though it's not one of the typical love languages, but just like helping, nurturing, all that. So it's just what I'm made to do. So I feel very like, kind of rejected and not seen.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay. And so how have you both negotiated that in your relationship? If, chuck, what are you able to say to Linda when you feel like she's maybe being overbearing with helping? And then Linda, how do you handle that with Chuck?
Speaker 2:I guess, just in thinking about the Enneagram and what you learn about the types and what the things are, it's. It's it's like you know you have a better idea of what the underpinnings are, but it doesn't always mean that you're able to act on those in the moment. So it's Act on them in the moment.
Speaker 3:Right, it's usually coming back to yes.
Speaker 2:It's definitely a process and I guess in those you know, in the examples you know, it's hard sometimes if you're not in a good space and you, you know we, it's like you struggle with the golden rule and the one pass that is of like you know. So Linda is going, how you know, treating how she wants to be treated and it's like not really how I want to be treated.
Speaker 1:So that's the next thing that shows.
Speaker 2:So you know it's a work in progress. I do think where it probably has the biggest impact is in the resolution. Like when you go, oh well, something didn't go right and then you're going well, what didn't go right? And then you're going well, how do you quickly resolve it? And then that's where we've had more success. We don't get into, we don't get in. I don't think we get into a lot of fights and arguments. That's a relative term too. But I think where it comes into play, you know, in that is you try in the moment of going oh well, you're doing this because, but if you're not feeling well, then you're really kind of in your own space about yeah, I just want to be left alone over here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and you're, and you're absolutely right. It is in the resolution. Right, because when we're dysregulated in whatever way we're dysregulated, we're dysregulated. In whatever way we're dysregulated, we're often not able to touch into those maybe healthier strategies of navigating relationship, and so it's helpful to come back and then revisit any situation, to go, okay, well, what can we learn from this? How do we repair this? Linda? What do you need to be seen and heard, chuck, what do you need? And then to come together in the resolution and repair the relationship. Right, that's typically good in any. It doesn't matter what the scenario is. In any scenario, that strategy can be used and sounds like that. That's what you guys do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not perfect.
Speaker 3:No, of course not, of course not.
Speaker 1:It's not perfect, still learning even at this age and been together forever. But I think the Enneagram has been one of the most powerful pieces that we share because in reflection, sort of what you're moving towards is when you think about it. I can see what happened through the lens of the Enneagram. I can see my two showing up, I can see the one. I can see why that would happen. I understand it much better.
Speaker 2:And it's super helpful for providing a language in that it becomes a little bit less personal. It's like, oh well, we both see a one and we see a two, and we know how a one and a two it exists. And like, oh well, this thing that made you so angry before, well, now, when you look at it from that lens, well, it totally makes sense. And you're like, oh okay, I get it. And then it just lowers the energy around that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and knowing that neither one of you are wrong, right, it's just different. It's just a different way of engaging with the world, engaging with relationship and when you can take some of that intensity out of the interactions, like the Enneagram is brilliant with that and I love that. You said that, chuck. The language. It gives language. I've said that for years and anyone I talk to when they're specifically talking about how they use it in relationship, they use the word language to describe it. It gives me a language to understand my partner, my friend, my child, and for them to understand me, and so that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:So all we need is that little magic button that allows you to stop in the moment and ask that question in that rational way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wouldn't that be nice, Very nice. Yes, freeze the frame, freeze the frame. Yeah, wouldn't that be nice, very nice, yes, freeze the frame, freeze the frame, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's. I mean, if you can do that in any situation, it's just so changes the experience, it sure does.
Speaker 3:It's pretty hard. Mm-hmm, yeah, so I didn't have this question. I didn't send you this question, so, if you don't mind, I'll ask it and then, if you want to answer, you can. How do you see the two of you show up in parenting together as a two and a one?
Speaker 1:a two and a one. That's a good one, because I think that we have a common denominator about a shared value system.
Speaker 1:So that's thankfully we have that. But I even said this to my girls recently, each one of them. They don't live together, they live in different parts of the country. But I said, what if it had just been me raising? I wonder what that would have looked like. And they both said, mom, we would have been like on the beach picking wildflowers, we would have been making art projects, we've been putting makeup on each other. It would have been a free form type of a thing, but thank goodness dad was around because he offered the structure to get us through in a really organized and goal-driven way. So, yeah, we have a different, we do it differently, except we do join, I believe, on a shared value about these children that we've we've had, um, I am, I mean, they asked for something and I tend to just like, okay, sure, like, why not? I'll totally do that for you. Or I give, I give way more than I probably should. Actually. Um, I like doing it. It's not always healthy to do. Do it like that. What would you say?
Speaker 3:So how do you balance that? For Linda Chuck, that overdoing and just the overgiving. I should say not doing, but giving.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that when things get elevated and there's issues, then we recognize and this was pretty recent like okay, well then we just need to stop and there needs to be a little separation. And then I would come into that situation Okay, because it's not quite as in most cases, particularly with one daughter, it's not as intense with me.
Speaker 2:So that's one example. I think the other one is you know, linda gets very caught up in the moment of what's going on and how are we going to get out of this situation? And I think I don't know if this is Enneagram or it's more personality she's a little bit more anxious, I'm a little bit more well, it's all going to work out and I think that is a good balance because, like, I would tend to be too far removed or too hands off and Linda would be too hands on, and so I think, when it comes together and we recognize that, we get to a reasonable middle place.
Speaker 3:And it sounds like your girls recognize that, like you said, linda, they recognize the beautiful gift that each one of you bring as their parents and that there's a balance there that is good for them and is good for you. Yeah, I think that they really do.
Speaker 1:I think they really appreciate all that for sure that Chuck brings, like he's so in an emergency, whatever. He's so solid, he's very rooted, he's very grounded. The whole thing and I'm, you know, can be quite hysterical, so he can temper it and they really appreciate that. And yet, you know, I'm much more like creating the magic in the house and you know the birthdays and setting the table, so it's all beautiful and they appreciate that. So I do think that they do see the gifts in both sides.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, Linda, what's one or two things that you love and appreciate about Chuck as a one?
Speaker 1:Well, the thing that I think started my wanting to be with Chuck is, basically I had had a lot of different loss and when I met Chuck, a dear, dear, dear aunt that she was just my heart aunt was dying and he was so kind and so practical and like rooted and grounded and I so needed that. So I think that that is the thing that drew me to him and also the thing that remains solid even today. I just so appreciate how I mean with this world to feeling so crazy and whatnot he's so I just can count on him and that has never changed the stability, stability and predictability that he offers.
Speaker 1:I can count on him In the organization.
Speaker 3:That's a quality. A quality of the one is very much, very organized, and knowing you and some of your story, I could see how that would really feel safe. It felt safe To know what to expect and the predictability in that.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It started that way and it's gone all the way through all these years. I can just count on them, and that was really what I needed, and I still so appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Chuck, what do you love and appreciate about Linda's being two, her two-ness, Chuck?
Speaker 2:what do you love and appreciate about Linda's being two, her two-ness? Well, I think it's the balance, because, like, yeah, I'm organized, I'm about getting things done, and that can really be taken to an extreme. And so Linda brings the magic and, oh, we need to do this. And you know, it's like all the holidays I'm like, yeah, I'm not doing anything really.
Speaker 3:She brings the magic.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I do yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and yeah, okay, well, we need to do something else here. We're done with the little chore list, let's go do something else. So there's a lot of that in, like you know the day to day, but also you know this, the the the more fun and just exciting types of things as opposed to just okay, well, I'm going to get stuff done, yeah.
Speaker 3:She invites you to have some fun with her which ones need. They need someone in their life that says, okay, let's go have some fun, let's go laugh, let's go. Ones need that and I love that. So how has knowing and using the Enneagram in your relationship increased your love and connection?
Speaker 2:I think what I was on that question, when we go back to that original argument story, one thing that has, you know, the family dynamics there's they're always challenging, right, and so we. It's just changed a little bit in that, okay, so now there's a story and there's a storyline of thinking about all the people in the family and their types and why they're doing what they're doing, and that whole thing makes it more interesting for both of us as opposed to, well, this stuff, this works and this doesn't work, is kind of harder. But when you get into, that's one example, I think, where we have a lot of conversations around oh, ok, yeah, and then how do we fit into that and how does that work, both within our nuclear family and, you know, the broader, our broader.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like the Enneagram it's given us something that we join in in a way that is really special. We're both fascinated with the Enneagram. I mean, I probably take it a little bit further because I use it in my work and I've done a lot of schooling around it, above and beyond, but Chuck has done plenty himself. But we have, like this, this interest that is just so dynamic and it pulls us together in a way that is I'm really appreciative of it.
Speaker 3:I really am. Do you guys have conversations about it Constantly, like eating dinner, and you have conversations about Enneagram Constantly.
Speaker 1:And my girls are also very into the Enneagram now too. They couldn't avoid it because I talk about it so much and check this too. But yeah, it's a big theme, I think in our relationship for sure. We did a program together, which is actually how we met you, wendy, and it was one of the best things I think we ever did together. It was just so different and interesting and it just is endlessly curious about the Enneagram. And when we go out in the world and you say, oh, did you see that? I wonder what that is all about. Do you think that person was not that? You're supposed to do that, but you can't help yourself, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, but I think it helps you stay curious about people, Definitely, Because you can say I wonder what, I wonder what that person is, you know thinking, feeling, doing what their Enneagram pattern might be. I think it helps us stay curious about people in our life and that we don't know and and that can offer us an a way of staying more flexible, right.
Speaker 2:It does for me anyways More flexible and also it's deeper right, like, rather like you're, you're, you know, you're not in the moment. You're saying well, you know this person, bob, here's what they were doing. I wonder what was going on there and you have some ways to think about it that are more open minded as opposed to reactionary and more interesting. Yes, yeah, yeah, and it has a language, so sharing that language, thinking about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it has a beautiful way of inviting deeper relationship with people, and I just had a conversation the other day with a friend, my oldest friend. We've known each other since we were 12 years old and it was the really the first conversation we'd had about the Enneagram. And it was one of the best conversations we've ever had in our life because I was able to understand her in a new way and she was able to understand me, and we've known each other since we were 12 years old. That's incredible and I was just like. This is why I love this so much.
Speaker 1:And why I think it's so powerful for relationships it is, and it goes beyond the types because I think also like the instincts is given another whole. You know this is. You know when you're into the Enneagram you're thinking about all different pieces of it, but the instincts too are. It's like a whole new way of seeing people's behavior or understanding it at a deeper level, and that's been also very illuminating.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what is some of the meaningful ways that you are growing together as a couple and individually with respect to the Enneagram? Your own inner work maybe that you're working on separately, but then do you have a relationship growth focus? Is that something you guys have had in the past? Can you share a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that we both, in different ways, have always been growth focused. Linda is a trained therapist and so thinking about growth in terms of the work that I do is always thinking about how, and one you're always thinking about how to do things better, and so what we really did do together was the whole Enneagram course that we did with you. That took three years and it wasn't the same experience for both of us, but then it was an experience that we both saw the other go through and so we could understand what was going on for them and understand what they were working on, and I think that that continues in of whatever we're doing. Coming out of that, that I think where a lot of the when we say growth or you know, really a lot of it came out of those three years of work through those programs, and that was a shared experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and at least for me from the outside looking in, it's that you're very supportive of one another's work, of your own growth and supporting one another's individual journeys, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this, because I'm inspired by your relationship and I think a lot of people think it's really beautiful that you both do this together, but also knowing that you're on your separate. You're both doing separate work too and what that looks like, but also the ability to support one another is really beautiful.
Speaker 2:I think one thing, going back to that group, that was super helpful is, you know, when we experienced that together, the way that group operated and the way the group saw it, it's like it was very consistent, like it was very what's the word there Supporting you. So they saw where things were working, they saw where things were not working, but there was like a very much a lightness about what wasn't working and so again you could put it out there. It's like here it is um, and you know there was even one um it was the second to last one where there was coming out of there. You know, the group kind of said oh well, this is what you need to do and we followed that and it was kind of funny. So it was just very supportive of being for both of us being seen in a way that was non-threatening.
Speaker 1:yeah I don't think we would have. You're pretty vulnerable when you're sharing at that level and it made a closeness that I think we'll just go through the rest of our lives together. So the Enneagram was the impetus, the start of all of it, and then doing this work together through those three years was pretty dynamic. It was a very powerful experience and you saw, I saw a vulnerable part of Chuck that I don't know if I would have ever seen just on a regular basis just out in the world. I mean, I known him for years and years and I and I was just like blown away by this tenderness and his sharing. And I've been in the personal development different things for my entire career, so it wasn't that huge of a like surprise when we went through the program together. But for him, coming from a corporate setting and not having done anything even slightly like it, I was just so touched by his vulnerability and his ability to share and I learned a lot about him through the lens.
Speaker 3:I love that. Yeah, I tell people all the time that something magical happened in that room with our group of people. That continues to this day.
Speaker 3:It does, and I am forever grateful for having met not only you but everyone who was in that group, I agree, and we still exist and support each other today. And so that's really interesting, linda, that you're saying like, even after so so many years of marriage, through this invitation to go even deeper in the, to say I saw. I saw things that I hadn't seen before. I learned things about my husband I hadn't learned known before, and it sounds like that increased your love and connection for one another it did.
Speaker 1:It was another layer, it was different, deeper layers that I just didn't even know existed, and I was so touched and I felt I said that word before. But it was this vulnerability and this ability to share things that were deep and personal and in a group setting, as you say, which is not easy at all, and I, I mean we left that first time just completely transformed. It was very powerful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, that's amazing. Um, so I want to make sure that I'm respecting your time and I appreciate your willingness to share, and so I guess my last question for both of you is if there's one piece of advice that you could go back and give young Chuck and young Linda at that pizza parlor, and then the you know, three years after or preceding months after, what advice would you give yourself and what advice would you give one another?
Speaker 2:I'll jump in because I think it relates to the topic. The Enneagram is just such a helpful model for understanding what's going on. And you first get into relationship and there's whatever, the six months a year of euphoria, right, you know nothing the honeymoon stage right wonderful then, as as the different things begin to appear and you're like what's this about, what's that about?
Speaker 2:or this bothers me, it's like it's. It's so much more of a helpful way to navigate that and I gave that advice to my younger daughter and her partner and it's kind of fun to watch them try and bring it in and help them understand where there might be tension in their relationship, to look at it differently, rather than waiting till all of those patterns are really deeply ingrained. It's so much harder to undo, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean I wish everybody could do the Enneagram as a young you know, in any kind of a partnership at all friendship even because it gives you access to not react about somebody else's being like they're doing something wrong, they're just driving me nuts or whatever it is that comes to mind that there is a deeper motivation, because we are all in this world looking at it very differently from each other. So, looking back, I mean I'm glad I got to it at this point in my life. I wish that I had had that kind of wisdom much earlier, because it's really very comforting and to know that people are not just out, you know, doing stuff to annoy you. They're literally looking at it differently. So it's, I would say, anybody young, anybody starting a relationship. It is just so imperative that you understand that piece of it, if you can.
Speaker 3:Yes, Amen to that right.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Everyone who's in relationship in a marriage.
Speaker 2:It has the ability to totally transform a relationship, a marriage, closeness, connection, all of it, yes, Well it's an easier way to come to that question of curiosity about, well, why is the person doing this? And kind of putting it not so intensely or so personal, so that you can kind of go, oh, what's going on here? I mean, there's obviously other ways that one can go about that one, but this one, as we've talked about it, it just it just works and the language is so good about it that it's very helpful, and then it never ends. It's so deep.
Speaker 3:Yes. Many many, it's many layers, oh yes, yes, yeah. Really Unless. Yeah, I tell people all the time there's, there's always a reason why people are the way they are and do the things they do. Always, there's always a reason, and the Enneagram can give us some context to the reason. Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So is there any last thing either? One of our studying, you know, the Enneagram together is because we have different instincts. Why I felt so like taken aback by his you know his family. They do a lot of things together. They're very group oriented they really are, so there's just a lot of energy and they're all doing things together and I tend to like kind of hold back and see where I fit, is this going to, is this feel okay? And so we start. I noticed that earlier on and I didn't know what it was and was reacting to it. Now I know what it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's one of those layers that we were just talking about understanding instincts, understanding subtypes and how that colors and flavors the expression of your particular personality pattern. It's all. It's endlessly interesting, so much we could talk about it all day long. We absolutely could. Yeah, chuck, do you have anything to close us out?
Speaker 2:No, it's always a fun conversation thinking about these things and thinking about why, the why and the motivations. And so, yeah, thank you for inviting us and asking us all these questions so we got a chance to think through them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're very welcome. So I am closing out the podcast with a quote these days, and so my quote for today and for us is love is not about sameness, it's about understanding the beautiful and challenging ways we're different and choosing to grow together anyways. I love that yeah, so thank you both very much, it's a pleasure to see you and talk with you, and I will talk to you soon. Yes, great.