Your Enneagram Friend

Subtypes of the Head with Wendy and Molly! (Enneagram 5, 6, & 7)

• Wendy Busby • Season 2 • Episode 2

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In this episode Wendy and Molly dive into the head PDP's of the Enneagram, unpacking the complexities of the subtypes of five, six, and seven. We discuss how fear drives their behaviors and the significance of understanding these nuances for personal growth and deeper connections. 
- Overview of Enneagram subtypes and their importance 
- Self-preservation five: the need for privacy and control 
- Social five: the pursuit of knowledge over connection 
- Sexual five: deeper emotional connections and idealism 
- Sixes and their relationship with fear and security 
- Self-preservation six: creating safety through connections 
- Social six: seeking certainty through rules and guidelines 
- Sexual six: confronting fear with assertiveness 
- Exploration of sevens and their need for freedom and abundance 
- Self-preservation seven: strategic networking and opportunities 
- Social seven: sacrificing personal desires for the greater good 
- Sexual seven: escaping reality through imaginative thinking

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where you are invited into an engaging and thought-provoking conversation about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to have more fulfilling relationships with yourself and with the important people in your life. Today, I'm joined again by my friend and teaching partner, molly Knutson Keller. Molly and I are passionate about bringing you topics that will help you on your Enneagram journey. Our mission at Enneagram in Action is to inspire you to get curious about yourself and about the people around you so that you can thrive in every area of your life. We're also about making personal growth, using the wisdom of the Enneagram, simple and accessible to you. Hi, molly.

Speaker 2:

Hi, wendy, it's so great to be here with you again. I know it's been too long since we've been able to do this Right, and so we're back on track and really excited for 2025, as we all continue in this work of self-exploration together, and it's really great to be with your listeners. Yes, it is.

Speaker 1:

All right, so this is the final part of our series on subtypes. I first want to apologize that it's taken us so long to get this out to all of you. Molly and I had a hard time aligning our schedules to record the podcast through the holidays, but we're happy to be back and bringing it to you today. This episode is all about the subtypes of five, six and seven, which are your head types. But before we get started, I want to just do a quick review of what subtypes are. If this happens to be the first episode you're listening to and you're like I don't even really know what they're talking about, well, we're here to tell you what subtypes are and why it's important to understand them and why we encourage you to really dig in deeply to the Enneagram. But I do want to encourage you to go back and listen to the episodes that we did on the body types and on the heart types. You can just scroll through the list and you can find those there. But here's the overview.

Speaker 1:

The Enneagram is divided into three centers the body, which includes types eight, nine and one. The heart, which includes types two, three and four. And the head, including types five, six and seven, which is what we're talking about today, and that creates your nine Enneagram types. Each type further divides into three subtypes, making a total of 27 subtypes. Now, don't feel overwhelmed by that.

Speaker 1:

We're going to break it down, and that subtype is based on the dominant instinctual drive for you, which could be self-preservation, it could be social or it could be sexual, which also is often referred to as one-to-one. We here at Enneagram in Action, we're just going to go with sexual because it really is more aligned with Enneagram theory. So all right, for an example is, if your Enneagram type is seven and your dominant instinctual drive is social, then you're what we would refer to as a social seven. And so when we're using that language, molly's a self-preservation to, I'm a self-preservation for, and so when we're using that language, that's what we're talking about and understanding the subtypes. It really just provides more of a nuanced view of the personality. It explains the behavioral differences that you might experience between two people of the same type, but they look really different and you're like, oh, I'm not really sure about that. Well, the subtypes really make a difference. So that's what we're here to talk with you about today. Molly, you have anything to add before we dig into 567?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks for that great review. And just a reminder that this is a simple overview and a brief snapshot of each of the head types, which is the three expressions of each number with the instinct, and so it's just an overview of the behaviors and patterns, and the Enneagram is this deep, vast tool of knowledge that can help us with a path to move forward. So if you hear something and you're like, well, so what? What do I do with this? Now, please know there is such a way forward and we are so happy to help you with that and explore that and untangle. So this is just, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and, along with that, we want to remind you to this work of exploration and inner work to hold both being honest with yourself, along with, and as importantly, self-compassion. Looking into ourselves more deeply is brave, and so you'll hear us use the phrase really over and over again oh hi, puppy, hi.

Speaker 1:

Oliver, I love hearing the puppies.

Speaker 2:

So as you're looking into yourself, it's bravery. So you'll hear us use the phrase be curious with compassion over and over. Curious with compassion, putting that inner critic in the back seat, and be spacious and curious with compassion.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and I want to add one more thing too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, please.

Speaker 1:

Because as we move forward, we're all about staying current, relevant, with whatever the modern research is saying, what we're discovering. We don't want to stay stagnant and Dan's the more scientific view of personality and we're going to start to weave in some of that language, some of those definitions, and so you're going to hear us evolve in the way we explain to you how we experience the Enneagram. But we're going to stay true to the Enneagram because it's just such an amazing tool. But there are some ways that we think we could maybe make it even that much more accessible to understand. So, to start with that, the head types what we're talking about today five, six and seven.

Speaker 1:

They're in what he calls the certainty category, the certainty grouping, right. So they're all looking for some sort of predictability, safety, security, because their main emotional mode is fear and they're driven by this underlying kind of fear. And when they don't have a sense of predictability, a sense of certainty about things, that fear gets a little bit charged up and it can be from anything from mild anxiety to like full on terror. So that's just one thing. And so when we're going through these, see if you can pick up on some of those nuanced things about wanting to feel certain. They're very up in their head. You know that's where the energy is. You might even see them like hanging their head to the side, or they might take their eyes up to the side when they're thinking about something, because they're thinking like the energy is rushing through the head space. So that's just my little insert for today. For that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I love that, and you know, nothing is static Nothing is static right. Always evolving and growing and learning, and so that's why we say over and over we're in this together. We are truly learning and growing and thriving together, all of us as human beings, for the sake of consciousness and health and aliveness.

Speaker 1:

All right, Molly, do you want to take us through self-preservation five Right?

Speaker 2:

Self-preservation fives. So the self-preservation five, which self-preservation is one of the dominant instincts. Self-preservation, social and sexual are one-to-one. So we're starting with the self-pres five. It is named, the shorthand is castle. The soundbite, this expression of five, embodies the trait of avarice, but not in the way that you might think. It's not about greed for material things, but really a deep desire and a need for hiddenness or sanctuary. A castle is protected by thick walls and it kind of can be a fortress. So for the self-preservation five, it is important for them and to them to be both physically and psychologically protected from the external world Within the walls of their castle. That is where they want to have everything they need, everything for survival, so that they don't have to step out into the world unless it's absolutely necessary. The driving force here, the thing that's underneath, is control. Driving force here, the thing that's underneath is control Control over personal space, control over time, control over resources.

Speaker 2:

The self-pressed fives can set strict boundaries. Whether they share it or not, they have strict boundaries and whether it's conscious or unconscious, and these boundaries they can carefully work to maintain and to protect them, to even fight for them. This avoids the risk of being depleted by others, depleting one's resources back to that. Avarice is underlying behavior and movement. So it's all about self-sufficiency to the extreme, but here's the catch. Self-sufficiency to the extreme, but here's the catch. Living in such self-imposed isolation can really clash with basic human needs. Many people find it natural to express desires and go for wants and reach out and ask or grab what we desire. But for the self-pres 5, even admitting a desire is risky as it could lead to dependence on others, which then could take away from resources and cross into those boundaries, those castle walls. So self-preservation fives tend to keep their actions secret and tend to move more covertly, ensuring that nothing breaches their carefully guarded space. This can make self-expression and sharing emotions really a challenge, a challenge Of all the types of five.

Speaker 2:

Of the five subtypes, the self-prez is the least communicative and the most withdrawn, typically holding tight to the few possessions, the places and the relationships that they cherish. All three of the type five subtypes are pretty five-ish. All three of the type five subtypes are pretty five-ish. So there's no obvious lookalikes like we like to talk about. They might look one expression, might look like another number combined with instinct. So there's not a whole lot of lookalikes, but it's always good to keep an open mind and to explore all the types with that open mind. Just to be sure, if I had to pick a lookalike type for the self-pres 5, it would likely be a self-preservation 6 because of that anxious and skeptical nature. So keep being curious about how this maybe interplays in your experience.

Speaker 1:

Yes, curiosity always, curiosity always. All right. So we are going to move on with social five, and the social five is named totem, that's what the soundbite. That one is right. Sometimes it can be easier to remember some of the points about each of the subtypes when you know their names. But if that doesn't work for you, then you can just toss that out.

Speaker 2:

So for this that's a real limited shorthand, oh, for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So for the social five, the passion of avarice isn't about hoarding material goods, but it's about the insatiable thirst for knowledge. It's as if they operate on the belief that everything that they need can be discovered through the intellect. So because of this, their need for human connection often takes a back seat to their pursuit of understanding. So it's like knowledge over connection. That is just where they go.

Speaker 1:

All of the fives tend to be a bit introverted to some extent, however, the social five, they're a little bit more outward facing than the other fives. They're a little bit. They can be a little bit more social in the way that they interact with others, and that's just something good to know. So they're more engaged, but they don't necessarily in their engage, in their social engagement, though they don't necessarily connect with people on a personal level. Instead, they're sort of kind of standing back and they're observing and they're taking notes about what it is that they're seeing and they're processing it through their analysis and they're making these analytical opinions, observations about the people that they're seeing, or even the people that they're interacting with, and so there's a barrier to true connection they're interacting with and so there's a barrier to true connection. And because of. They often kind of cut off themselves from that heart space. It just happens. Naturally it's not a it does not make them bad, worse than any other right, it's just. This is why we're doing this right, because it's good to know what the differences are.

Speaker 1:

But in their quest for knowledge they can sometimes turn that quest into finding the ultimate meaning of life. It's like they focus intensely on finding meaning and this pursuit. It can be so intense that it can lead them away from, like, the practicalities of everyday life. They might come off as too spiritual or overly idealistic. Sometimes they miss out, actually miss out, on genuine spiritual growth because they overlook the importance of compassion, empathy and that human connection, that spiritual connection, because it's all about the intellect and it's about the information that they're learning about spirituality, not actually participating, having that participatory experience in spirit, in spirit so social vibes also.

Speaker 1:

You know they drive for something extraordinary and things that are imbued with profound meaning, a little bit like we were just talking about. They're always looking for what is the profound meaning? It's this kind of black and white thinking. It can take them, it can make them seem a little bit more mysterious and hard to reach and the lookalikes for them. They can be a little bit like a self preservation seven, or even a self-preservation four, because of a little bit of their, you know, elusive, complex, mysterious, this mysterious nature that they have, or they come off as right. The self, not the self, I almost said self-preservation. The social five they're on a quest for the extraordinary. The challenge lies in balancing their lofty pursuits with the simple, meaningful connections found in everyday life. It's about finding that sweet spot where knowledge meets heart and where understanding blossoms into empathy.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you, it's really helpful. And one of the distinctions between head type and heart type when you were talking about lookalikes. So the self-preservation four as a lookalike and the social five being lookalikes, think about the head and what you're thinking about. So our head, our brains, are always active. For many of us, one of the important distinctions that's been in my journey is recognizing what my brain is busy thinking about. And for self-preservation fours a lot of times correct me if I'm wrong or add to this, wendy is they're thinking about relationships and connections and ways to find meaning in relationships. Social fives are thinking about knowledge, information, understanding, connecting the dots of why something might work or what brings something depth and meaning, and so really observing with compassion, compassionate curiosity, is helpful when you integrate the centers. What is your head thinking about, what's happening in your heart. So can you pass on that?

Speaker 1:

No, you're absolutely right. Right, it's the four as self-preservation four, and I have a very strong five wing, so I actually relate a lot to what we're talking about right here. The fives right, and this fours, the holy idea of the fours, holy origin, right. So there is like all fours kind of have this existential sort of wanting to find meaning and understanding and have answers for why. You know what's wrong with them and because they all, all fours, think that there's something wrong with them, even though there's not, there's nothing missing, your whole. But it's this.

Speaker 1:

But I'm not going to do a lesson on four. That's not why we're here. However, the four is feeling about relationships and that feels like thinking, like the way I like to describe it is like the heart and the head often are like a ping pong ball, like they're rapid fire back and forth as the four tries to make sense in their head about what they're feeling. The five is just in the head. They're analyzing relationship. Yeah, so the information it's the. They're drawing in information about relationships, about the people that they're interacting with, but it's not the same ping ponging that the four gets. So that's a distinction. The five is just staying like they're analyzing. They're like oh, this is just information, this is just information.

Speaker 2:

And the four and the four is like you know, so I I heard you refer to wings wendy and I want to ask our listeners, all the listeners here, that that is another depth of the enneagram. Yeah, helps us balance out. Um, that we will into or you can listen to another podcast.

Speaker 1:

Yeah and simply. The wings are just the two numbers on each side of your dominant number, right.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes we lean into one more than others. So for Wendy as a, four wings are the five and the three. So you're saying you lean really heavily into the five.

Speaker 1:

I do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I lean much more heavily into the five and I love it as your teaching partner. I mean, it's awesome Depth of knowledge. Okay, I'm going to carry on to the sexual five, the third expression of the Enneagram type fives. The sexual subtype of the Enneagram five is named confidence. Again, that little sound bite. Unlike their fellow fives, who might distance themselves from their emotions, sexual fives can dive deep into the world of feelings Interesting. Can dive deep into the world of feelings Interesting. They are intense, can be romantic and incredibly emotional, sensitive, sharing more in common with the Enneagram four. So, again, a lookalike type. You might not notice this right away because they often appear similar to other fives, but when something sparks their romantic side, look out because their emotionality is pretty high.

Speaker 1:

So the assumption that head types aren't connected to feelings as easily is nuanced, yeah, and this is really driven by that instinct, right, the sexual instinct is about. It's intense, all sexual subtypes. There's an intensity. There's a the zing, the zing, the juice, right, we call it the juice, yeah, and so it's this. I want to connect with just that one person, so there's just this intensity, right, and for the five, that's what you're talking about right now, and it comes out, when they want, in the romantic ideal of what they think. Again, we have to come back to that. It's happening in the head. What they they're thinking about is the ultimate romantic partner, right, so keep, yeah, keep keep going with your, with your points here, because it's really important. So I won't interrupt again.

Speaker 2:

Oh, you can, anytime, anytime, okay. So the sexual five is on a quest for the ultimate perfect union. They dream of something that could almost be described as divine, this mystical, transcendent kind of love that feels safe and protected and utterly fulfilling. It's like they're searching for the example of absolute love, someone who embodies unconditional affection and trust. And this search can be so intense that it can even extend to spiritual leaders or to mentors. And the challenge is that it's really hard for anyone to live up to that and it can be challenging to find a romantic partner when the intensity needs to be there, so real compassion around that exploration of connection and relationships when we're in our whoever we are.

Speaker 2:

But for sexual fives, that's where that consciousness and curiosity comes into play. For sexual fives, trust is incredibly important. They long for a relationship where they can be just 100% themselves and open and transparent, sharing all their secrets without fear of judgment. This need for deep connection means often they will test their potential partners and their ability to truly be open and trustworthy, so kind of maybe test and push. Unfortunately, this means they also face frequent disappointment.

Speaker 2:

And as such an ideal level of intimacy and openness, as I was saying, is hard to find the name confidence reflects this subtype's desire for a partner who will stick with them, no matter what, a person they can trust, who will love them. Flaws and all this ideal fuels their romanticism and vibrant inner life, which they might keep hidden from others. So it's not always out there, even though they're open to sharing emotions more um, more um, generous or transparently. But that inner vibrant life and romanticism that spins and swirls, that might be really private. So while they might come across as reserved, under the right conditions, their desire for deep, meaningful intimacy reveals a much more passionate and profound side. So any thoughts about that, wendy?

Speaker 1:

So um, any thoughts about that, wendy? Yeah, as um, yeah, as you were just talking about that last bit right Of this like vibrant inner life, it, um, it made me think about the, you know, the three focuses of attention that Dan Siegel is bringing forward, that um right.

Speaker 1:

Great connection with the certainty they want, certainty and trust in this partner or in this mentor, right, and so fives all of the three five subtypes are inner focused, so there is an inner focus, and so that just means like that, almost it's like, I think, a good descriptor for it for all inner focused types.

Speaker 1:

It's like the eyeballs are turned the other way, like I've been thinking about how do we describe this?

Speaker 1:

Right, so for me, eyes, right, but for me, like it's almost like my eyes are turned inward on my heart, because fours are inner focused, okay, and fives are inner focused, and so there's this intensity around knowledge, and so they stay inside of themselves to put all of the pieces together of the information, the information and their, their private right, and so they're not sharing. And, like you just described, the sexual five is more, um, more open to connect, to connection, but they have such a high ideal that I've heard it, I've heard, I think I I can't remember where I heard this story, but a story about a sexual five that it's like if they, um, if the partner or the person that they have held to this super ideal doesn't meet their expectations, they're just like I can't trust you and it's an impossible standard to reach right and, piggybacking on that, sometimes it's a little harder for a sexual five to actually enter into any relationship at all because of that kind of testing before.

Speaker 2:

So one of the encouragements can be good enough yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just try it out, right, yeah, yeah, anyway. So that made me think about that. When you're talking about how it's their inner.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that. I love the eyeballs idea too, because that just made me my brain go to all the different types. But carry on, let's go into sixes, okay.

Speaker 1:

All right so, but before we do dig really far into the sixes they need a little introduction, similar to what I did when we did the heart types with type four, because the three subtypes of types that can look really different from one another.

Speaker 2:

Wendy, that made me want to just stick with fives for a second. The sexual five is what's called the counter type. Second, the sexual five is what's called the counter type, so it doesn't always look like traditional type. It's expression is quite different than the other fives. So each, each of the numbers has a counter type in the sexual five. That's why it looks a little different.

Speaker 1:

It's true. Okay, yeah, we didn't mention that. So, um, so, the, uh, the type sixes they're. Look, they look really different, but their deep motivations are the same and that's really important to remember. The motivation is way underneath the way it is expressed out into the world. It looks a little pretty differently from one another old, it looks a little pretty differently from one another. So, um, a lot of mistypes can happen with sixes and a lot of mistypes can happen with fours because of, because of this reason. So I think it's really important to cover it.

Speaker 1:

Um, so, the self-preservation six. So, the self-preservation six they have a more warm and friendly demeanor and they deal with fear by building connections with others. That's what makes them feel safe. When they create this safety net of relationships. It helps them feel safe and less alone. The social six is a little bit more cooler. They can even be cold towards other.

Speaker 1:

They manage their fear by sticking to the rule book. For them, this certainty that they're seeking, this predictability that they're seeking, comes from clear rules and defined reference points. Defined reference points. So by knowing what is expected and who's who, they can navigate their fears with a little bit more detachment than the self-preservation six and the sexual six. They're definitely hot. They meet fear head on with strength and sometimes in intimidation, with strength and sometimes intimidation. So instead of backing away from fear, like the self-preservation six is going to, the sexual fear is going to push towards fear as a way to deny fear, because they're afraid.

Speaker 1:

Do you see the theme? Their motto is the best offense is a good defense, right? If I attack you, you won't attack me. If I'm big and strong, you won't attack me. So there's this way that they use big, intense, that intensity that all the sexual subtypes have, right, this intensity to keep fear at bay, and so it can be harder for them to recognize that fear is actually there. And so those are just the three. Also, the self-preservation six is the most phobic, the most afraid. The social five is kind of a mix of phobic and counter phobic. They can kind of go between. Sometimes they feel very phobic, sometimes they're like, no, I'm not afraid, I'm afraid, I'm not afraid, you know. And the sexual six is definitely counter phobic. They're denying that they have fear. Yeah, so that's just kind of the wave top overview, because they do look really differently and a lot of mis-types can happen here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah yeah, that's a really important clarification. All right, let's go into the self-preservation six. This may not surprise you, but the self-preservation six is affectionately named warmth. That's the little sound, right. This subtype is defined by a profound sense of insecurity, a constant, nagging fear of not feeling protected, which, as Wendy said, makes them the most phobic among the sixes. They perceive the world as a pretty scary place and their main coping mechanism is forming alliances, building connections and relationships. They strive to be really friendly. Strive to be really friendly, trustworthy, helpful and supportive, because that's what they believe good allies should be allies in protection.

Speaker 2:

The self-prez seeks safety in numbers. They don't trust themselves enough to feel secure on their own, which drives them to depend heavily on others. This dependency comes from a need to feel embraced by what they consider a family, a safe, warm place away from danger. Now, being warm isn't just a personality trait for them, it's a survival strategy. By being warm, they aim to make others friendly towards them, to avoid confrontation and aggression. They believe that if they're good and likable, they won't be attacked. This leads them to suppress any signs of aggression, not just from others, but also from themselves. They think if I'm good, well I can't be angry because that might bring someone who might attack me, which often leaves them feeling even more insecure and unsure of themselves.

Speaker 2:

For self-preservation sixes, decision-making is a real challenge. They are plagued, they have a constant loop of hesitation, of indecision, and it can be almost paralyzing, this uncertainty and this seeking of certainty. You see how that dance happens. Self-preservation six asks many questions but find it hard to settle on answers, so a lot of ruminating. This subtype is all about the gray areas. They rarely see things as black or white, which only intensifies their doubt and makes decision making all the more difficult.

Speaker 2:

The self-prez can seem similar to a type 2, especially the self-preservation 2, because of the warmth and the friendliness that they exude. It's important to remember the self-preservation six presents as heartfelt and caring on the outside, but inside they're constantly analyzing and overthinking about safety, certainty, security. This mix of heart and head defines their complex and often contradictory nature. And I just want to add here, as a self-preservation too, when I am sharing about the self-preservation six, it is so similar. Talk about lookalike types and, as maybe you've heard me share before, I thought I was a six for a very long time until I finally settled in self-preservation two, which has that underlying core fear of not being loved, core desire to be loved, and for the self-preservation six it can look very similar to the self-preservation two. However, underlying the motivation underneath is that need for security, for safety and certainty, to be safe, and the core fear magnified to be uncertain, to be unsafe. Anything you want to add to that, wendy.

Speaker 1:

No, I think that you explained that really beautifully. So, yeah, I love whenever I take an online Enneagram assessment, which I don't really relate to, sixes a whole lot in the overall experience. But it's that self-preservation instinct that is the fear right. For me, it's fear of abandonment. It's fear of loss of connection. My fear is more specifically related to relationships. Six's fear is more global. They have a more fear of the system, a generalized fear of almost everything, and that need to be certain and that need for predictability is really high. Like I don't need predictability, I'm okay with. I don't need things to be totally certain, but what I do need is I need to know that my relationships are safe.

Speaker 2:

And you know, as you're saying this, this really is generating this curiosity with compassion. Is generating this curiosity with compassion, such compassion, and how helpful it is to know what our underlying. You know who we are doing this work, because holding that fear with this compassion can really be transformative. Knowing that fear is so magnified can really really comfort. So anyway, I'm just so. Why don't you head into social sixes now?

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah. So the social six is named duty, and this isn't about them always doing their duty, it's more about their need to know what their duty is right. It could also be responsibility, like, could maybe be another name. It's like what are, what is what, what's their job? And they want to really know what that is. That's where that certainty comes in, like, if I just know what I need to do, then I feel safer.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so they're constantly looking for benchmarks, rules, guidelines to help them navigate their world. They deal with the passion of fear and the anxiety that comes with it by leaning heavily kind of on this abstract reasoning, ideology and rational thinking. For them, safety lies in clarity, in knowing the rules, in understanding the boundaries and figuring out who is right and who is wrong. So there's a need to know what is the right answer and what is the wrong answer, so that I know what I'm to do. So there's this constant need to know what the right answer is. Social sixes have this, like I said, that mix of both phobic and counterphobic tendencies, and they come across as a little bit more cooler. They're not as warm as the self-preservation six, they're a little bit more distance and yeah, so and I want to just like interject here.

Speaker 2:

I think sometimes social sixes are pretty precise and can, uh, in speaking very articulate, um, very, um clear, which is um I, I I'm always struck by that. As a self-preservation too, who uses a lot of words, social sixes are very direct and clear and happy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so they can be a little bit rigid. Right In that need to like, have the precise answer, to know what the precise thing is it makes them a little bit more rigid thing is it makes them a little bit more rigid, and this leads to them holding on to like ideologies or rules with almost like a fanatical grip, because the predictability that they need is within the rules, it's within the guidelines, so they're always looking for the rule book. What does the person in charge, the person that they believe to be in charge, what is the person in charge saying? What are they telling me? The rules are so that I can be sure that I'm doing what's right, because if I'm doing what's right, then I feel safer, I feel more comfortable in my world, I feel more comfortable in my own skin. They don't like gray areas. The self-preservation six is more. They like the gray areas because they're always like is this right? Is this right? I'm not sure. Let me ask, let me ask, let me, let me ask more questions.

Speaker 1:

Let me try to figure out once that this, um, the social six, does not really like the gray areas. They want to know what is right and what is wrong so that they can do the right thing and stay safe. So I hope that that all kind of made sense. It was a little bit jumbled in there, but yeah, um. So they have a strong fear of disapproval from the authority figures that they have decided are their authority figures. Um, it's a way of staying safe to, you know, figure out what the right thing is to do and to stick to it, and then getting the approval from the authority figure, which can be it doesn't have to be a person, it can be an organization, it can be an ideology, whatever it is that the six has latched onto as their go-to authority. So in that they also can have a little bit of a legalistic streak and a focus on efficiency, and this makes them look a little bit like a type three, and that can also look a little bit like a type one.

Speaker 1:

This precision that you talked about, molly, of needing to be precise with language Ones want to be precise with language and so there's a little lookalike in there in that too. But there isn't the self-critical. Sixes aren't really critical of themselves. They're just gathering information, right, it's that intellectual endeavor of knowing what's right, and when they find what's wrong, they just let it. They're like they push it out where the one might ruminate on a little bit more, beat themselves up super critical of themselves and the sixes. They've already moved on yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the sixes, they've already moved on, yeah, so yeah, you know, I was thinking about um a social a close social six in my life and that nuance between the self-preservation six and the social six.

Speaker 2:

Um, the social six friend of mine talks about becoming that come becoming too sure about something, and she can talk me into things because something is so great and it's just the best thing ever and I need to do it. And as we were exploring that she and I, she's like oh no, I want you to do it because that helps me understand that it is safe and secure. Oh yeah, and that was just fascinating to me because, as the self-preservation too, I'm like okay, that sounds good. Okay, you must know I'm a baby, take care of me.

Speaker 1:

Well. So that's so interesting, though, because the defense mechanism for the six is projection Uh-huh, right. So it's like sixes have a difficult time trusting themselves, except for the sexual six not so much. They have a hard time trusting themselves, and so it's almost like she's projecting what she already knows to be the right answer, the right thing, onto you, so that you can then project safety back to her. Yes, that's really that's it. That's what came to mind as you were describing that, and that's kind of the sexual six.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, let's get into the sexual six, which is that's kind of fun to say six. Let's get to know which about this type, which is named strength and beauty. So this type, this subtype, is the counter type among the sixes and they all look quite different, as you can absorb. But the countertype of the sexual six handles fear differently than you might expect. Rather than shrinking from fear, they confront it head on with this show of strength. For the sexual six, their motto would very well be the best defense is a good offense. So they're very forward moving, they're active, they're out there. They often adopt an intimidating presence as a way to keep danger at bay. If they appear strong and formidable, the thinking goes, then they won't be seen as targets of all the unsafe things out there. So this stance for the sexual six isn't just about looking tough, it's about being ready and skilled enough to fend off any threats. Always on guard, they appear strong and maintain a powerful demeanor that keeps potential threats at a distance. They're all about physical prowess, endurance, physical prowess, endurance and also the ability to come out of conflicts unscathed. No injuries for this, metaphorically or actual.

Speaker 2:

For the sexual six, fear is not consciously acknowledged. They see intimidation as a tool to prevent themselves from becoming victims, intimidation as a tool to prevent themselves from becoming victims. Typically they are more assertive and aggressive in public than in private, often not fully aware of the intensity of their own aggression. And again, that connects so strongly with the dominant instinct of the sexual dominant instinct. That intensity of the sexual dominant instinct, that intensity, it's like they think of themselves. They think to themselves if I don't act afraid, then I'm not afraid. I shake my fist in the face of fear. But underneath again, way underneath, is that almost tough, fearless exterior. Is fear, that counter type.

Speaker 2:

Unlike the self-preservation six who might avoid direct confrontation, the sexual six is direct. They're drawn to it, finding a strange sense of safety in actively facing danger. I know one sexual six who has stories I mean this is just kind of an extreme example of jumping out of airplanes and hiking in remote places, which is a physical expression of that fear. So it can look so different. You wouldn't imagine that person to be a six in the six family. So this can sometimes give sixes a resemblance to type eights, who are known for assertive leadership qualities and that forward movement. However, while eights seek to create order and control. Sexual sixes might find themselves stirring the pot or disrupting order to make a statement or just to keep things interesting. So, even though they might not feel their fear, it's always there, underlying the actions and shaping their approach to the world around them. It's that underlying fear and putting it out, almost turning it differently in order to stay safe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's really, that's really great the way you described it. Um, the sexual sixes that I know, uh, they both happen to be female and they, they both exude this like, and they both exude this strength in their beauty. It's like they use this powerful presence that they have to fend off threat tall and I'm maybe even a little bit louder, right, then the things I feel threatened by, the things around me. They're not going to come close to me, and so I love the title, the name or the soundbite of sexual sex, because it's very applicable. Strength and beauty, you know, because it's very applicable. Strength and beauty, you know. And so they can look.

Speaker 1:

Yes, they come off in intensity as an eight, but they can also sometimes I think, get confused for heart types because they seem on the outside a very strong, beautiful, handsome, you know, just not just handsome like this formidable figure, right, and so they do put a lot of effort into their appearance, but it's not for the same reasons that the heart types do. And so that's just another. Again, as we're talking about the things that look, I do have one story about this I went to last year. I was at this conference and I happened to be sitting next to this lady who was new to the Enneagram. She was there just to kind of learn more about it. Someone had invited her and she, um, you know, she was, as I was talking with her, and she was like well, you know, my friend is um, or someone told me that I'm probably an eight, but I don't know, that doesn't really. You know, I'm not sure about that, and, and you know I get there's, she's like there's so much about the eight that makes sense to me.

Speaker 1:

And so I just started to kind of ask a little it's a little little questions, right and in this conference there happened to be a presentation on subtypes, and so I said, you know what? I would encourage you to go to that one and to pay attention to the sexual six and just see what you find there. And she came and found me the next day because it was a number of date, conference was a number of days, and she said you were so right. She said thank you for encouraging me to do that because it makes so much sense. The eight didn't totally make sense. Some of it did, some of it didn't, and, and she was again, she was just this beautiful, formidable woman who appeared so strong and confident and forward Right. But inside that it's to counter the fear that they're feeling. And sexual sex is often like I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid of anything.

Speaker 2:

Right Cause, that dominant lead of the intensity and the forward movement. Yeah, that is, that's really powerful and you know for for us and for that person when she discovered that it can seem magic like magic when it's like what? Or a coming home, you're totally describing me and that is the power of this Enneagram tool that it gives us a place to know where we land and we don't stay there. It's a launching pad into this freedom. It's a launching pad into this freedom.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, if you're listening to this when it comes out and you have been frustrated with the Enneagram, if you've been frustrated about not really seeing how you connect with it or how it might fit for you, or maybe someone assigned a type to you and, look, we could be wrong. Yeah Right, we are not inside of you. And so whenever I'm suggesting a type to someone, I always say like, look, I might be wrong, but this is what I'm seeing and here's why I'm seeing it. What do you think about that? How does that feel? Why don't we try this on? Let's explore this a little bit more. And so if you are in that space and you're feeling frustrated by the Enneagram, reach out to us. Let's explore and give yourself a break. Be kind to yourself like we talk about all the yes. Be kind to yourself Like we talk about all the time. Be kind to yourself yeah. Come to this work with a lot of openness and compassion.

Speaker 2:

And I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:

I want to say I'm sorry because, look, many people have been where you are, where, I mean, we have a friend who lived at I'm not going to say her name as another type for many, many, many years and she was constantly frustrated because she wasn't on the right path.

Speaker 2:

And I want to just add to that, too, that there is nothing wrong with living in another type. I mean myself, I lived as a six for a really long time. It didn't hurt me, I still was doing my inner work and I still learned so much about myself. And then, when I landed in the self-preservation too, then I was able to just go that much deeper, and so it's all okay. It's all a part of this beautiful dynamic progression, this evolution. Yeah, I'm sure. Yes, spaciousness, gentleness, yes, right, let's wrap it up with seven.

Speaker 1:

So, okay, the self-preservation seven is named Keepers of the Castle. They have this very unique way of indulging life's pleasures, mainly by forming strategic alliances. You can think of them as creating their own little network. They're not just gathering friends, they're strategically building relationships with those people that they can rely on and trust. So there's a bit of self-interest in the connections. They're not necessarily altruistic, right, I'm doing this for a reason. This relationship, this strategic relationship, it's different than the hard relationships. The strategic relationship is good for me. That's the self-preservation seven is thinking about that all the time. Um, they're incredibly practical. They have a knack for spotting and seizing opportunities. So they're a bit opportunistic, um, and. And their net, their networking skills are amazing.

Speaker 2:

Um, for them, maintaining amazing Um for them maintaining. I'm sorry to interrupt here. I just realized can you, um do just a little overview of what is the core motivation, core fear, core desire for type sevens? What's, what's that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so, um, yeah, Um, well, their passion is gluttony, right, and they don't want to be um. Their core fear is to be limited, um, to not have options, and their core desire is to have options, like to be free, to not be trapped. I don't want to be, uh, contained and Pain is a pain. Yes, and pain, avoiding pain, avoiding pain, right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And one of the words that is something I always listen for when I'm chatting with someone who might be exploring type seven is bored. Being bored can seem like torture. Yeah, so that's. Thanks for letting me interrupt. No, that's okay.

Speaker 1:

So, sevens, they're keeping themselves very busy to avoid a lot of things Avoid pain, Avoid pain, discomfort. I want to be positive, don't be negative around me, let's just have fun, like those are some of the kind of stereotypical things that we talk about with sevens, right? So I did mention that the passion, the emotional drive is gluttony, and this doesn't mean indulging in food or drink, although that can happen, right. It's more about this insatiable appetite for making the best deal at every turn, making the most out of every situation. That's the gluttony. They're always on the lookout for an opportunity and it's hard to have a conversation with them that doesn't somehow circle back to business Cause, remember, it's about making strategic, relational connections to um, move them forward in the. They're very practical, they're driven, they're often highly successful. They're innovative All sevens are innovative.

Speaker 1:

But self-preservation, sevens, they just have this way where it's just like. It can look a little bit like opportunities happen to them, but it's not. They're going out and getting them, they're seizing every opportunity. They're cheerful, talkative, they're charming, very, very charming. But they tend to keep an emotional distance. So it might feel like you're connecting with them emotionally, but it's really more of this distance sort of you stay there, I'm going to stay here. What business can we do together? So they often, you know they're prioritizing their own interest, sometimes at the expense of others. In terms of the Enneagram dynamics, the self-preservation seven, it could easily the lookalike type, easily reminds you of a social three. They're focused on efficiency, success and they're kind of wrapped up in this sociable pleasure seeking package. So what do we know about social threes? They want to be out front on stage looking like they've got it all together. They're focused, they're efficient, they're making things happen. And self-preservation sevens are like that too. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Emotions can lead to staying in pain. Why would I ever want to stay there? Someone really close to me, who I believe is a seven, just says I don't understand how you can do what you do, molly. Why would you want to stay? Why would you go to therapy? Why would you do this inner work? It sounds horrible. Why would you do this inner work? It sounds horrible and I love to hold that because there's just not judgment there. It's like oh, look at us, we're so different. We just land so differently in the Enneagram tool. That framework can really help with the zoom out. Yeah, understanding. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2:

Okay, social sevens and Wendy, we are almost done with this cast. We've got social seven and then the sexual seven to share about. So let's dive into social seven, which is named sacrifice. Let's dive into social seven, which is named sacrifice. And the social seven is the counter type among the type seven subtypes. So the social seven doesn't always look like your traditional stereotypical type seven.

Speaker 2:

Social sevens take a unique approach to dealing with their natural tendencies, their underlying motivation. They're acutely aware of this desire for more, this gluttony, this want for more pleasure, more gain, more everything that can be a driver of type sevens. But instead of embracing this, they choose to define themselves against it. They almost deny, repress, react to it, practicing what you might call counter gluttony. And there you get the name sacrifice, almost sometimes sacrifice to a point where it can be harmful to themselves. Social sevens are the epitome of not wanting to exploit others. It's like they can sense their own potential for excess and actively work to counteract it. They aim to be pure, to avoid being overly opportunistic or selfish. That is something they work hard against, that idea of being selfish, and they really hope to embody goodness. This often translates into giving more to others and taking less for themselves, turning their back on the typical uh, gluttonous desires by living in for a long time and proving their selflessness.

Speaker 2:

Because social sevens strive to deny and mask any selfish desires with this altruistic behavior, it can be hard to spot the typical signs of gluttony that are threaded throughout or that are at play. They can look a little five-ish because they can make a virtue out of getting by on less simple, simplified, simplified. You see how that plays out there. But they often take on responsibilities within their family group, sacrificing personal desires for the greater group, greater good, envisioning a world that's better, freer, healthier and more peaceful, and so they can often take on huge responsibilities in their family group.

Speaker 2:

Again, that sacrifice so the name sacrifice here doesn't just mean giving things up. It's about sacrificing their need for more, which is something that they have a perspective about, almost like a judgment, a self-judgment, a self-criticism that can be conscious or unconscious. It's about serving others, the sacrifice serving others, which they view as a moral imperative. It is a moral imperative to serve and sacrifice While they want to be seen as good and pure. This stance also brings ego rewards like appreciation and recognition and that positive image. While social sevens are helpers at their core, really concerned with alleviating the pain and suffering others, they may get mistaken for a type two, but social sevens are aware of their own needs and they are self-referencing. Twos are other-referencing, which we'll explain more later in another podcast, right, and social sevens are self-referencing.

Speaker 2:

So there is that real nuance. Even on the outside they might look alike. On the inside there's distinctions and differences.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I asked a social seven um one time if because I was trying to see this you know difference between the two which you can speak to Molly of maybe not knowing what it is that you want, not knowing what your needs are, because you've, literally because you've numbed yourself to those things the seven no's, I said do you know what it is that you want? And she's like all the time Interesting All the time.

Speaker 1:

She denies that in service right. It's that denying in service to not fall into the gluttony that's right there. It's like they're constantly trying to avoid, it's more conscious.

Speaker 2:

It's more conscious when, with twos, you ask a two, what do you want? And we say what do you mean? I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's like a I have no idea, a disconnection from that, and the seven no's.

Speaker 2:

The other thing that's so held to so tightly for social sevens which I think is part of this dynamic that we're talking about, about knowing and also working against is this moral imperative. I've heard that from social sevens a lot. It is my moral imperative to serve and sacrifice, so it is held on to so tightly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's often the job that they took on as a child.

Speaker 2:

They're the one that's to make everyone feel better, happy, sacrifice their wants and needs for the family and it can be really harmful to their own health and well-being. So, again, knowing this can really be helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, do you want to stay positive? Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You want to bring us home.

Speaker 1:

Yes, the sexual seven is named suggestibility, and I love that. It's such a cool word, suggestibility and you're going to see why as I go on here and explain more. The sexual seven really embodies the idea of being a glutton for the ideal. It's the higher things that just seem out of reach from the mundane world. They're the dreamers among us, always envisioning something far better than the reality that we're actually in. And they can sometimes be called, like the Peter Pan, the Peter Pan of the Enneagram, because they're just like oh, but they have this high ideal because it's this avoidance of reality. So they have this very lighthearted, almost heavenly demeanor, not quite grounded, but always kind of floating in the clouds with their imaginations. They're very creative, always thinking, always thinking of thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking of new things, interesting things. What can I do now? What does this mean? What does that mean, right? So you hear that very heady, heavy head energy. They just have a knack for dressing up reality and seeing everything through rose-colored glasses. Like I want to see everything through rose-colored glasses because I don't want to face reality, because that's not fun, I don't want to, and it can be, it's painful, right? So if I stay optimistic, then I don't have to actually look at what's happening. They're kind of they thrive on fantasy, on daydreaming, the continual need to see life not as it is but as it could be or what they wish it would be. So another way to kind of think about it. And so what happens is that this sometimes it kind of manifests as an overcompensation, a kind of denial of where the dull, painful or frightening parts of life are. Like let's just gloss over those, let's just be happy, let's just think of something new, let's go have fun.

Speaker 1:

I have a sexual, I have a sexual seven client that whenever things are getting hard in her life, she plans a trip oh, let's go, where are we going to go? Where are we going to go? Let's go here, let's go there. And it's that coping mechanism of like let's just go have fun. So sexual sevens they can fall into the trap of their frustration with reality. It can be hard for them to really just open up to seeing what is like, what's the data that's in front of them. It's really hard for them to do. And so if you have sexual sevens in your life, be really patient with them and keeping that in mind, and keeping that in mind, it's kind of tough to pin down a lookalike for sexual seven, but they might remind you a little bit of a social nine, but their social nines and sexual sevens are definitely different.

Speaker 1:

That peacemaking vibe, the peacemaking right. Let's just no conflict. We don't want to feel bad. Everybody get along, because if we're getting along then we can have fun. Yeah, that kind of thing. So do you have anything to add to that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I, I really you know, every time that we go through this, every time I hear about the subtypes or types, I I think she's probably a sexual seven and how helpful that is for me. I'm not going to go tell her because we don't do that, we don't want to type, tell them or be bossy, but it can help in just understanding. And when you said that kind of airy daydreaming heavenly, I think it was that really was like oh okay, and so I hope that you listeners hear that real nuance of not wanting to type someone or say you're a, you're a sexual seven, but but really using it for our own um compassion and curiosity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's constantly on the forefront of my mind, I'm, I'm. It's always there, being like, oh, you know, I encountered this gentleman today and someone mentioned to me that, oh, he's shy. And I thought you know what? I don't think he's shy, I think he's nervous. And so it was just that you know the things we assign people to try to make sense of the experience that we're having with them. We all do that, right, we are narrative beings. We tell stories to describe the experiences that we're having in our life and with people, and so I just thought that that was kind of interesting, you know, and I was like you could totally interpret that as oh, he's shy shy.

Speaker 2:

Shy is so kind of general.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And I was like I think it's, I think he's actually, I think it's nervousness, right, because there was the body language thing there was. There was this going on right?

Speaker 1:

The bringing of hands, the bringing of hands, yeah, yeah, there was just like this sort of kind of palpitation of you know, and those are just things that we learn to pick up on and in this work that we're doing Right, but to say all that is is is really the people that you're encountering in your life is really the people that you're encountering in your life? If you know the Enneagram, even just a little bit, don't be prescriptive with it, just use it as a way to invite understanding. I tell people this all the time there is always a reason why people are the way they are, always, and so when you don't understand something that's going on, try to keep that in mind and go like what is going on, like what's the reason, yeah, and what's happening in me, and what's happening in me, what's happening in them, and to come together and to seek understanding through.

Speaker 2:

Oh my I feel another series coming on for conflict resolution.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that would be a good one.

Speaker 2:

It's been so great to be back together. Yeah, it really has To wrap up this series that we've done so. Thank you for the invitation for me to join you on your podcast. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

You'll see. You're going to yeah, those who are listening, you'll see more of Molly and I this year as we, you know, think about what our next thing is going to be. We have lots of exciting things happening that the two of us are doing together and we have lots of things that we're doing individually. But stay tuned, everybody.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and thanks for being here. Go gently, go slowly and with joy.

Speaker 1:

Yes, Bye everyone.

Speaker 2:

Bye, thank you.