Your Enneagram Friend

Milton Stewart: Harnessing the Enneagram for Personal and Professional Growth (Type Seven)

• Wendy Busby • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Explore the transformative power of the Enneagram with Milton Stewart (Type SP 7) as he shares his experiences, teachings, and insights. In this episode Milton and I talk about self-preservation Seven, techniques for managing energy, overcoming emotions, and the impact of continuous improvement on personal and organizational growth. 

• Milton's journey discovering the Enneagram 
• Managing high energy and finding balance 
• Confronting uncomfortable emotions 
• Importance of understanding subtypes in the Enneagram 
• Leveraging the Enneagram in corporate culture for inclusivity 
• Kaizen philosophy for continuous improvement 
• Nurturing community and connection 
• Upcoming retreats and professional opportunities 

Two ways to get connected with Milton! Instagram or his website. 

Make sure you follow him and be sure to check out his podcast Do It For The Gram: an Enneagram Podcast

https://www.instagram.com/doitforthegrampodcast/

https://kaizencareers.com/

If you're loving these deep dives into the Enneagram, don't miss out on more. Follow me on Instagram @your_enneagram_friend for daily insights that will inspire your personal growth journey. Follow, like, and drop a comment to join the conversation. Let's be friends!

Are you curious about what your Enneagram Type is?
Click here to buy the online Enneagram Test https://wendybusbycoaching.com/enneagram-type-test

For more Enneagram insights follow Wendy on Instagram @your_enneagram_friend
https://www.instagram.com/your_enneagram_friend/

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Book your 1st coaching session here for FREE, no strings attached, I promise!
https://wendybusbycoaching.com/schedule-a-session-1

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where you are invited into an engaging and thought-provoking conversation about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to know yourself better. Your very own life and relationship coach here to inspire you to know yourself better. Today I'm super excited to introduce my guest, milton Stewart.

Speaker 1:

Milton's innovative approach to the Enneagram goes beyond personal development, impacting corporate cultures by promoting diversity and inclusion through deep personality insights. His highly acclaimed podcast Do it For the Gram an Enneagram podcast, offers practical and actionable Enneagram wisdom, making the complex themes of the Enneagram accessible to everyone. He has an extensive Enneagram career, which includes being the youngest and first African-American male on the International Enneagram Association's Global Board. African-american male on the International Enneagram Association's Global Board With nearly two decades in the field. His work ranges from educational roles to high-level consulting. As a prominent speaker, milton has appeared at top venues like the Global Enneagram Summit and Stanford University. He's guided by his philosophy of Kaizen, which is the Japanese word for continuous improvement. Milton's efforts help individuals and organizations break through their limitations. So today we're diving deep into Milton's impactful journey and the transformative power of the Enneagram. So join me in welcoming my friend and Enneagram self-preservation type seven, milton Stewart Hi.

Speaker 2:

Milton, Thank you, I love that. Oh my gosh, I feel so warm Like man. Who are you talking about? That guy sounds awesome.

Speaker 1:

Talking about you. All well, all well deserved, all well deserved. So well, I'm so excited for our conversation and really cannot wait to see how it unfolds, and just excited that you're here. So, as we get going, tell our listeners a little bit about your background. How did you come to encounter the Enneagram and how did you learn that you're a self-preservation type seven? Yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker 2:

Yes, that's a good question. Yes, that's a good one. So a little bit about me. Born and raised in the Memphis, tennessee area, I first encountered the Enneagram. It came my way. I was stuffing my face full of food at what we call a devotional at the time and they brought out. They said, does anybody want to take a personality test? And I was like, yes me, what's up? Hey, hey, hey and um so um, a good friend of ours, who at the time was the young adult minister at the time, comes in and he brings in this blue book which is the Russ and Russ Hudson and Rizzo uh book. That is the Enneagram.

Speaker 2:

Oh, the big book, the big blue book, what?

Speaker 1:

is it the wisdom of the Enneagram? The wisdom of the Enneagram? Yeah, that one.

Speaker 2:

He brings in that and they have the two question test in this book, right. So it's pretty good. So I get my numbers right. The first couple of times I'm like, oh, this is great. So what he does, he reads off the first two paragraphs of each number and what's interesting about it is that the first two paragraphs if anybody's read the Wismuth Enneagram they're the good things about you. There are things like oh, yes, please say more, please bring in more. But then he started to read the third and fourth paragraph would say all the things that people may not always see about you, but you know, is true.

Speaker 2:

So I was like, oh, and I was in the room full of other people and friends and I was like, no, I don't know about it now. I was like I don't know if this is true now, like I have to look at it. But I knew deep down I said, oh, this is real. And I was like I don't know how it's pinned me, like so well, but it's creepy. So I so they read the seven. After that I went and got every book I could find which was not a lot back in the day. Back in the day there was not a lot of books. There was literally one podcast out about the Enneagram so I listened to that about the books that I could find, and I just started studying it and getting into it and telling friends and family mistyping everybody I knew, because I knew barely anything about it at the time, and so that's how it started Now.

Speaker 2:

Along that journey, I just kept growing, kept learning more, kept figuring out more stuff about myself, and over time I've found the CP Enneagram and Beatrice Chestnut's book, the Complete Enneagram, and when I read about the self-prep seven in that book, because I saw like the three different sevens, I was like, hmm, let me see. I was like, oh no, oh no, oh no, this is way too close to home, like it was. I would say. It was so close that I was like I don't, even if I want to share with people that I'm a self-prey seven, because it's like it's like somebody finna read your deepest secrets out of public. I'm like, oh shoot.

Speaker 2:

I was like this is too close. I was like, wow, um, so that's how I knew. Because when I read the other two um, uh, subtypes, I was kind of like, yeah, a little piece of me is that? But there was always this piece of me that's as a self-prez dominant seven I am. I'm a little bit more reserved, like I can be out there. I definitely can turn it on. I do get energized by people, but I love being by myself and I love, like, making sure I get what I need.

Speaker 1:

Um, so it's so, from self-preservation to self-preservation, I get it.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so. So that's helped me. That's helped me a lot.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Well, thanks for that little explanation. It is true, and I love I've had a similar experience with the Complete Enneagram with Beatrice's book, right Reading the self-preservation, for like, I literally felt like something ripped me open from the inside, like the deepest parts of the inside, and it's like, oh, wow, okay. Well, here we go.

Speaker 2:

Well, I guess it's accurate, because I feel it deeply.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, yeah. So one one thing that I know about you, and about sevens in general, is that you have high energy, and so, with that high energy, how do you decide where to focus that energy and how do you recharge when you do feel depleted?

Speaker 2:

So I do have quite a bit of high energy and it comes out a lot around people, like in front of people. When I'm around people in front of people, um, because it's interesting, the self-preservation really it balances out my energy in a way. Like where I'm not, when I'm not in front of people, when I'm just alone, I am way more settled, I guess I would say. I wouldn't say grounded, I'd still be anxious. And I'm still moving, don't get me wrong. But it's not as like buzzy, I guess I would say, because I'm trying to chill and focus. And a big part of like the ways that I try to manage that high energy is by learning how to be more and more organized. It's a constant thing, learning how to organize and be prepared, because one of the gifts of the seven, as you know, is to say okay, I can in any moment, throw me in front of people, throw me in something, I can figure it out, we can get it done, I can show up. But what I'm learning in my experience now is that where I'm trying to go, I can no longer rely on that to get me to the places I want to be at. So I have to take more time to prepare to be more organized, and that's taking a lot of inner work because it's tied to a whole bunch of stuff. So the other piece of that when I do go and I do too much. So I'll give you an example the 2023 IEA conference, the global conference I was on the conference team and so I had to turn my social on. Social is my second, so I had to turn my social on for an extended period of time and it was like three or four days, and then I had to go, leave and work with an organization, even though it was at a retreat center, and the day after I finished doing the retreat, I got sick I mean real sick, and I just had to be like I'm sorry, I cannot come out and do anything with you all. I just got to stay with me because I'm sick, and that really helped me to see, like when I put too much energy after I'm too high buzzy, I'm doing too much and filling my plate, overfilling it.

Speaker 2:

I have to have practices and routines in place more, even more, than I usually do. So for me, what I do is meditation. Meditation is the first thing, so I try to do every morning I do a meditation and it ranges from like 15 minutes to an hour, just depending. So that's part of the way that I've started to manage that high energy and really calm myself down and ground myself for the day. So when I enter into it, like I'm being wise with how I use my energy and I'm managing some of the anxiousness that is occurring in my body for any different reason. So I'm working on that.

Speaker 2:

Another thing I do is I try to get regular exercise, even if it's just functional movement. It doesn't have to be nothing extreme but just something to really acclimate and move my body. Because, since my work now is because I formerly I was an athlete, so I used to work out all the time, I used to be used to it. But now the fact that I am more like using my head for all of my work and not my body as much, I have to make sure my body gets used in a way that brings it like, okay, present moment, be grounded, be here. So that's been one of, I guess, the best gifts to me is like noticing okay, bring back the working out that you've done before, have meditation, and then making sure that, like I take pauses and breaths throughout the day. So it's like a conscious awareness throughout the day of doing something to bring myself back to my body, because my energy goes outside of my body.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, all very up in here. Yeah, all very up in here.

Speaker 2:

Like oh my goodness.

Speaker 1:

Head type right Always thinking, always planning the hope, the planning, everything. And so I love that you're describing this grounding in the body. It's almost like I've got to feel my toes on the floor, like all the way through, bringing that energy down and checking in with yourself. Do you find, without that practice, that you get distracted throughout the day from what you maybe intended to do for yourself? What did I get this morning? What am I intending to do?

Speaker 2:

And if you're not implementing some of these throughout the day practices that you get really distracted. Oh, all the time. So if I say, for instance, if I go two days without like meditation, I feel it so deeply now so I think that's an interesting part about our inner work than we're doing, you notice, you notice way more, and so when something's off, you're like, oh my goodness, I'm off Right, and beforehand you may not have noticed it, you just kind of live with it. But now if I go two days without a real meditation or real grounding, something somatic, like I'm feeling fuzzy, I'm feeling distracted, I'm all over the place and I'm like what is happening? So, for me, my practices. So I have morning practices when I wake up. I have, during the day, little things I do, and then I have night practices that I do as well, because it's so important and something that you mentioned somehow has helped me to not be as distracted.

Speaker 2:

I really have to. I have to give myself frameworks, because the way that my brain works, it just does this, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Right. So I need frameworks to help me make sure I cover the details that needs to be covered when I'm doing something and I need to organize it. So every Saturday and Sunday a little part of Saturday and a bigger part of Sunday I organize myself for the upcoming week because I will forget what's coming up and it'll cause anxiousness in my body. I'd be like what's coming next? I don't know. Well, I looked at my schedule. I don't know. Am I prepared for it? Am I prepared? And it'll cause this anxiousness? But when I take time and prepare prior to it allows me to know what's coming, to be balanced, to prepare for it, so that like, okay, I'm more grounded, I can approach this with an energy that's not distracting or worrisome or anything like that. So that's been majorly helpful for me in trying to manage distractions limitations.

Speaker 1:

You know sevens not liking limitations, sometimes wanting to run away from uncomfortable sensations and emotions. So what has been your work around that and how do you encounter situations, or how do you handle those situations as they do come up?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I have recognized that being a seven and doing this work and, like you know, reading the books, but also getting the experience that the trap is running away from them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's actually the trap. The trap is running away from them and avoiding the fear, or whatever Like. For me, right now, the biggest thing that I'm working with is the fear, different versions of fear within myself. But there are other emotions that, obviously, that are uncomfortable, that I've had to constantly work through right, anger, sadness, these different ones, and so on this journey. The first one that I went towards was sadness because I was like well, I'm a seven, they say I'm always happy, so let me work on sadness. So that was the first one I worked with when I first started my work, which helped me.

Speaker 2:

And so when I did realize, like what I said before, that the trap is like not facing them, it gave me a motivation to want to face them because it said I'm like, I don't like being trapped by nothing. That is, that is the thing. I don't want nothing to trap me. I don't, I don't care what it is and I definitely don't want something inside of me to trap me. Come on now, like, so that has propelled me to continue the journey of like, okay, what do I need to face?

Speaker 2:

Confront process and then figure out what to act on it, because you know after a while, once you become present on this journey, you realize it don't go away. If you don't work with it, it'll go through it. And it's like and I get tired of going through the same cycle over and over again. So I was like, okay, this is my motivation for pushing through and facing uncomfortable emotions. So something practical that I tend to do. One I have a mantra that I do this year. It's like a mantra or affirmation, whatever you want to call it, but it's I face fear process. It then act on it, and I say that like six or seven times before I go to sleep every day. But part of it is something I've done this year particularly. I put the hardest things that I don't want to face and deal with on Monday. Like I put it on Monday, and so I you know, because beforehand I had put it on Friday, which is a horrible idea when I really think about it.

Speaker 1:

It's such a horrible idea I would. Anyone want to do that on Friday.

Speaker 2:

Right, I was like that's a horrible idea. So I put it on Monday and I feel my feels on Monday, which is a lot of feels and it's not fun. But I'm always happier that I work with it, that I dealt with it, that I looked into it, that I examined that so that I have the ability to work on it. So that's one thing I do.

Speaker 2:

As far as journaling, I use my phone a lot, so I don't, I don't, I do write, but I don't necessarily write like journalistic personal stuff. I usually like kind of note that really. Or I do audio, and so for me it's a lot of that Sometimes where I have to like get out what's in here, and not just head but in my heart. They'd be like, okay, let's get to my heart of things, right, let's get to the experience of things, so let's write it out, and so those times really helped me. Flights is another one. I love being on a flight. There's something about being on a flight where I can get really introspective and where I don't have all these distractions, and so I'll mess around and write some poetry on a flight.

Speaker 1:

I'd be like, oh, I ain't doing this in so long.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my goodness, what the world is inside of me, right, and so I love that. I love that. So those are some of the ways that I do it, and besides that, just going to trainings and I love coaching people as well. But it's a part of the piece where sometimes you ask the question and you're coaching and you're like, oh, I need to answer that too.

Speaker 1:

Hold on, let me-. Yeah, or check your response before you give it Like am I talking to the client or am I talking to me?

Speaker 2:

Let me see, let me check this real quick. Yes, yeah, so yeah, that was our.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love your mantra, though, because it includes that action right, which is getting into the body. The body is about moving into action, and it doesn't just happen because we want it to happen. We actually have to be a participating member of the work. We can't just look at it from afar. We have to invite ourselves into it and be willing to do the hard things, the uncomfortable things, if we really want something to be different in do the hard things, the uncomfortable things If we really want something to be different in the way we are, the way our life is, our relationships are.

Speaker 1:

So thank you for that really awesome answer. So I do want to briefly talk about subtypes, because we've talked that you're a self-preservation seven, because we've talked that you're a self-preservation seven, and I really think it's important for people, if they really want to do this thing that we're calling Enneagram work, that they understand their subtype, because it does just take it to a whole new level. So how important is it for you to understand Well, you kind of touched on it about the inner workings of the self-preservation seven as opposed to just the seven in general. But for a little teaching moment here, can you share the similarities and the differences in this type seven subtypes, just to give an overview, so that someone who's listening would be like oh so it is important to understand because there are differences and those differences really do show up in interesting, interesting ways.

Speaker 2:

Yes, you're such a great teacher too.

Speaker 1:

So I, you know, selfishly, just want you to give us a little moment.

Speaker 2:

selfishly just want you to give us a little moment. I appreciate that. So one way that you know when we talk about subtypes, where people understand, is that we're we're blending two different things. We're blending the passion AKA what's the emotional habit or the emotional suffering or the feeling suffering of that particular type with the actual dominant instinct of that person, right? So it's that animalistic part of a person that is very reactionary and it is coded in survival not thriving, but survival. And so when you mix that dominant instinct with the passion of the type, you get this interesting blend.

Speaker 2:

So the passion of the seven being gluttony and I actually think about Uranio when I say this, because he's like gluttony and I'd be like he's saying gluttony that's awesome. But gluttony for the seven is this constant need to consume experiences. In actuality, that overconsumption is trying to feel something inside of the seven that we feel is missing, but we're trying to fill it with external experiences that will never satisfy, unfortunately. So that is the passion of the seven, first and foremost. And then we blend the dominant instinct which we have, self-preservation, which is I need to make sure I get what I need, I need to make sure I have survival. That makes me more private. That makes me make sure that I look out for myself more than anything, and I can be paranoid about it. So it's more what I call the lone wolf mentality. It's a way that if I think about how a lone wolf operates, right, can I move faster by myself? Yeah, but are you going to go further? No, is everything harder when you're trying to do something big? Yes, so you got to think about it. I mean, I know, I know, I know, we understand that, like, we understand this. So, and then I think about social, which is, I think of it like a wolf pack. If you think about that, like, how do I navigate in the wolf pack? Where am I in the wolf pack? What is my positioning? And it's important that I know my positioning or, if I want to get closer to the leader, if I want to be the leader, my influence and how to navigate it, what things I need to say, what I don't need to say, how I need to show up. Those things are happening. For the wolf pack, the social dominant instinct, right.

Speaker 2:

And then for, like we would say, the one-to-one or sexual wolf, which I say like mating wolf or something like that, I don't know how to have a great phrase for it yet. But it's kind of like okay, I am very focused and in tune with one other person at a time and I'm very interested in them. So there's a certain energy. When you really excited and when you really like someone, that's just a certain chemistry you have. You do things a little extra. You might be a little bit more romantic, you one. That's just a certain chemistry you have, you do things a little extra. You might be a little bit more romantic. You may have a certain energy. You feel it in your body. It's a certain energy that you have, and it's usually with one person at a time and it's like, yeah, everybody else is cool, but I want to focus on you. You know what I'm saying. So it's that difference. So when we blend those with the actual passion of the type, you get something very interesting.

Speaker 2:

So self-preservation my type. When my gluttony mixes with that self-preservation dominance, you get somebody who's looking to find ways that are physical, tactile, that are materialistically feeling like they're going to satisfy me, right. So I'm looking for anything that's physical, tactile. So that can be from food, that can be from physical pleasures of any sort, that could be, sometimes depending on drugs if they're not careful, but anything that's tactile they feel like they can really go physically do and consume. In a way, that's where the self-prest seven can be like in trouble if they're not careful. Right, that's a trouble spot for them. You have social. You have social. When you mix gluttony with that. Now you have a gluttony for all of the social things happening in society and around you, and so they can look a little. They look like sevens. I know, for me they look like sevens regardless.

Speaker 2:

But they can look a little different because their consumption, the way that they consume, their gluttony, is about groups, is about people, is about different things, and so sometimes it looks like they're overly focused on not giving to self but giving to the group in a way, but in actuality it's still consuming from themselves, because they are consuming all of these little experiences from other people, like, ooh, I like this, I like being a part of this, this is fun, this is exciting. And then you have the one-to-one or sexual seven mixed with gluttony, and so now there's this rich intensity into making sure that they squeeze the juice out of every part of life and they feel the fun out of and usually they are. They love to be connected with a partner, but it's whatever is exciting for them in the moment. So sometimes it's not always a person, but it's whatever they come affixed to, they are extremely excited about it and they are like to the moon and back positive about it.

Speaker 2:

So sexual sevens, when it comes to overly positivity cause we can be stuck in it like maybe toxic positivity, if you want to call it that. Whatever they call it, they're up here. So their ability to not live in reality but to see a big and bright future is way up here, right, they can live in dream world, like for real, for real, like and really believe it to be true. And then you have social, which is a little closer to the earth, right, a little bit more grounded. Then you have self-pressed, who's a little bit closer to the earth. We're all still far above everyone else right now, just floating, but this is kind of how we operate. So there's a little bit of a difference with the three.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for that wonderful teaching moment. I hadn't heard it said in those ways before, so I'm going to have to come back to my own lesson here. Thank you for that. So I really would like to make a little transition here and start talking about how you use the Enneagram professionally. So what are the primary ways that you do use the Enneagram professionally and tell me a little bit about what it is you're doing now?

Speaker 2:

professionally and tell me a little bit about what it is you're doing now? Oh gosh, I love this question. So right now, majority of what I do is coaching, consulting and training. I love these things, absolutely, love all of them. So I coach personal clients and executive coaching for clients, right? So I use Enneagram in both modalities. So how does it help a person at work and how does it help a person at home with their everyday things they're trying to do? So I love that bucket and I love my clients. They are great.

Speaker 2:

Like I wake up, can't wait to see what they've grown into and everything. And then I work with organizations and this is so fun because I get to use my the sevenness in my brain to see a vision and to see their vision and to use the Enneagram to see the people and how they play roles. Right, how do I help leadership figure out, like, what's the best way to move a group and to lead a group into success, right Into accomplishing the vision that they want, because I, my brain, can put the pieces together. It's really cool. I can see what the parts are missing. I can see all those things and I can give it to leaders to help them say, oh, this is maybe what I need to enact or I need to do or I need to give to my group or this is how I need to show up better as a leader, because maybe this part of me is what's impacting my team not to show up. And then the other piece of the training, like so actually working with big groups of people, medium to big groups of people, and teaching the Enneagram, facilitating it and making it fun and engaging I really get to use my sevenness in this way, which I love because I do a diverse amount of things with the Enneagram in organizations, right.

Speaker 2:

So I work with organizations. We talk in purely. So I work with organizations. We talk in purely personality. I work with them when we talk about inclusion and fairness work. I work with them when we talk about just communication and conflict, dealing with those things. So it's the gambit of things and stress and brain science and a bunch of stuff. But the Enneagram is this grounding weight of saying hey, we all can do the work and become better and work together better if we work on ourselves, if we acknowledge and know what's happening in itself. So those are the things I absolutely love. I also do retreats now, which I'm like, I'm trying to get in.

Speaker 1:

I promise yes.

Speaker 2:

You will enjoy it so much. I promise, yes, yes, you will enjoy it so much, like we did the big Enneagram retreat the first time last year, which is the earth edition, and we're starting to do earth, fire, water, sky and then cosmos. That's going to be some years off, but we're doing these because big stands for body-based, integrated in nature and then grounded in practice, and so we wanted to add these features into the Enneagram work because it's so important for transformation and to feel like safe in your body, actually, so you can be a person who works on yourself, you feel safe enough to do it and create an environment where you can do it, and it's beautiful that connects to Earth and nature because it Because we're so disconnected a lot of times in our world, but nature is one of the best ways to help us grow. It's so helpful and we're practical and we have fun. So those things happen and so I do those.

Speaker 2:

So those are, I guess, the big four things I do, and I love every single one of them and I love to work with change makers is what I call them Organizations, because you know, I've worked with organizations and people who weren't focused on that and that's cool, yeah, but I enjoy people who actually want to create change in the world, because it's just something special and they come to do the work and they're more serious, I find, than just running the mill. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what's your next retreat that you have planned?

Speaker 2:

So the next retreat coming up is the Big Enneagram Retreat and it is in March. I believe it is March 23rd through the 27th or 24th through 27th. I'll have to send that link to you but it's people can find it at big Enneagram retreatcom. You can go there. We have the dates, but that's the next retreat. It's in Minneapolis. It's a beautiful retreat center, priced well, the food is good. So yeah, that's my, that's the next retreat.

Speaker 1:

Great, yeah, and I'm going to put all of those links to in the show notes, so, no, everyone will know where to find you. So, um, all right, and so we. I touched on when I was introducing you, um, excuse me, your philosophy of Kaizen, so I'd like to for you to talk a little bit about that. And how do you incorporate that into teaching the Enneagram, as in your philosophy of teaching the Enneagram? It's such a beautiful word. It's such a beautiful word.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So this word found me in college. It found me in college and inside of a business class. They were talking about the company Toyota, and the Kaizen method had been introduced years and years ago to make their production and everything be better. How can we be better every day? How can we do something a little bit better?

Speaker 2:

And when he said the word, I was like hmm, that's an interesting word. He didn't say a continuous improvement. I was like whoa, hold on, Like I like this. This is like I've always been put in me by my own mother, where it was like you need to just try to get better or be the best at whatever you're doing, type of deal. She said, no matter what you are if you're a garbage man. But then that was a word that kind of encapsulated and I was like, oh my gosh, continuous improvement. So it stuck with me and eventually became the name of my business and so my philosophy of continuous improvement.

Speaker 2:

What I want to do when I work with people is leave in companies a footprint that allows them to constantly grow and get better, regardless if I'm there or not. I don't want their growth to be dependent on me. I want it to be dependent on them and the inner work that they're doing and feeling empowered to keep doing it, and I want to give them the tools and resources that they can continuously do that inner work. So continuous improvement to me means that even if you're not at a point where you can just make exponential growth, like big growth, like you're making just strides and leaps, but can you do something small just that day If your thing is working out maybe you don't have the energy, maybe you don't have the motivation to go to the gym right now to get up and do the workout, but can you lift a water bottle a couple of times in the motion of lifting, just that day? Boom, that's small.

Speaker 2:

We just want to create and I'm reading this book psychological momentum. We want to create some psychological momentum so that you know, over time you just get a little bit better, you just get closer and closer, and we just do that on scales that work for each person or each company that I work with. So how do I find that small thing, that small win, to say, well, it was better than yesterday, I did improve, and so we're going to keep building on that, because sometimes the psychology of it itself beats us up until we're not able to know like, oh, we can do it, we can do it we can do it, so that's overwhelming right it can feel overwhelming when you're trying to digest all the information that's coming at.

Speaker 1:

You say you're new to the enneagram, right? Or it's a concept that's new, and you're trying to digest the information. It's like where do you start? You know, okay, now what? Then the, the, now what question, right? So I love this idea of just making these small. Where can we start that small that feels doable, because people need to feel a win, like you said. Yeah, all the way up into that, you know, into the brain, right, fixing those neural connections neural plasticity, strengthening the myelin right, all the things that go into all of that right.

Speaker 1:

We need those to help us along the way.

Speaker 1:

And so when we try to throw gigantic ideas at people when they're not ready for it, and then we wonder what happened, and it's like, oh well, you know, maybe you, maybe you, you know, threw too far and something always trying, always, I'm always trying to keep that in mind and I have noticed in my, in myself, if I have gone too far with a client, right, and then they back away and I'm like, okay, all right, I'm learning, I'm learning, but it's hard for me, right, and my intensity, man, I could be intense.

Speaker 2:

I apologize.

Speaker 1:

I'm sorry, I'm being intense.

Speaker 2:

I want you bro, you can do this. You're like I mean, I know you believe in me, but like right now I don't feel like it. I'm like hold on, oh gosh, yeah on.

Speaker 1:

Oh gosh, yeah, the stories, the stories, but we'll keep those secret.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, all right. So I kind of touched a little bit on like what you want people to get out of your workshops and stuff. And so, you know, personal growth can feel, and inner work, specifically more focused on inner work it can feel like this process of there is this two step forwards, two step back? It's like, oh, I thought I dealt with that, right, oh, and here it is again. And here it is again. You know, for someone um, maybe not in the beginning stages, cause we kind of cut, we covered that, but someone who's already really kind of all right, they're in it right. Someone who's already really kind of all right, they're in it, right, they're on the path, they're doing the work. And it gets at some point frustrating, where you're like am I ever going to get over this? Am I ever going to grow through this? Why do I keep finding myself and it usually is passion- it's usually something connected to passion, because it's sneaky.

Speaker 1:

I love the way you say it's sneaky. You're usually like it is sneaky, yeah, and so what do you? How do you encourage people in just being when they find themselves there and they're like is this inner work? Is it worth it? Is it worth it Because it's hard? Right, it's not inner work if it's not hard. Inner work doesn't feel good.

Speaker 2:

It is not fun.

Speaker 1:

It's not.

Speaker 2:

It is not fun.

Speaker 1:

This is not a commercial for who wants to buy our product. Milton, we're saying it's hard.

Speaker 2:

Seriously. So one thing I do because I definitely understand that and we encounter clients like that and obviously we experience these things but what I do is I zoom out. I try to help my clients zoom out when it gets, because you become so fixated in the moment that you don't see how far you've come along the journey. And so I help people zoom out and like, okay, so let's look where you are compared to where you started first of all, so let's shift a perspective so that we see you've come a long way. That's one thing I do. I zoom out for them, I help them to zoom out so like, oh, okay, even though I do feel stuck here, I'm still in zooming out. Then I help them remember, or I give them another analogy.

Speaker 2:

There's this book called the Compass of the Enneagram, but she gives amazing um diagrams to help us understand what growth really looks like, because it's a journey and so, and she gives these different ones that we know from growing up in school. But one thing is it's like um, it's a chart where there's there's chaos and order, and so chaos feels like you're plateauing, like you're not growing, which feels like you said, like two steps back, and then you have order, which now you've figured out all the new pieces and components, now you start to organize them and you start to help, like, put them together. You're like, oh, my goodness, I get it, I'm growing, I'm growing, so you see it go up right. You're trying like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. This is good, this is working. And then there comes more things your way, right, and it's like now I'm back in chaos and I don't understand. I was growing, I was doing good. Now I'm back in chaos. Things aren't going well, I'm not growing. Am I going backwards? This sucks, right, you know.

Speaker 2:

It's like I'm stuck Right another level sometimes of me zooming out for people or just recognizing that, okay, this is a moment where there may be a there's usually a pattern that's bigger than what we've been aware of before.

Speaker 2:

So it's like, yes, we can catch a daily pattern, if we pay attention of a weekly pattern, a monthly pattern, but when it comes to like yearly patterns or seasonal patterns or family specific patterns, it's different and you have to be like hold up, let me see something.

Speaker 2:

I need a little bit of help seeing what the bigger pattern is, because if I can get my mind around it now, I can see that this is actually a pattern that's been happening for a while and now I can put a little bit of, I guess, resources in place to help me figure out how to order all of this kind of order, this what feels like chaos, and it helps me face something that I didn't know I needed to face yet, which is another tricky thing. It's like, oh, I got to face this, or it's a deeper level of what you faced before, but now you're on the next level and it's like, oh, I thought I passed you, I thought I did this. Now it's another level because the awareness game is so interesting because you find subtleties, it becomes subtleties and it's like only people who've doing the inner work will understand and honor your subtlety. When you share what you've noticed about yourself or something, just a subtle thing, they're like oh my goodness, great job. Everybody's be like what you know.

Speaker 1:

So no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker 2:

Right, it's like okay, yeah, but like they don't understand the subtlety of you recognizing it and then working to overcome. It is a major thing and it's going to ripple throughout your life in a lot of different ways because it's helping your body to heal and overcome things that it's probably trapped in trauma, fear, pain, somewhere along the route. So I would say that's kind of the way that I approach it with clients is a big shift in perspective.

Speaker 1:

That zooming out. I like the way you said the zooming out. Let's take a look at where you started and where you are now and see how much you've grown and really name it right. To name it, say it out loud and that's really powerful. Thanks for that. Thanks for that. So yeah, I've certainly seen that in myself, you know, I mean I, I know I'm different than I was when I started this journey. Right, this Enneagram inner work journey and um, getting for the four. Right, it's that paying attention to the emotion that you're avoiding.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can be emotional right.

Speaker 1:

It's like, okay, oh, I'm working, I'm working on this feeling, I'm working on this, but it's like, okay, but you're avoiding the thing you actually need to feel, and we all do it right. Every type has their adaptive strategies to survive. We all have it right. Every type has their adaptive strategies to survive. We all have it. And so it's finding what that is for you and it's worth it. Man, I don't want to go back to where I was.

Speaker 2:

Oh, no, no, thank you, not at all, not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. As much as inner work can be a pain at times, I would not turn back any of it because who I am now and much as I love myself now compared to back then, night and day Night and day. I love.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's like it feels good to be in the body. Yeah, right, like we've talked about this grounding, it feels good to be in the body. Yeah Right, like we've talked about this grounding, grounding it feels good to be in the body, and that's what we're a whole person. We need all of who we are to connect with others, to connect with the world that we're in to serve, to give all of it. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Well, I want to honor your time, and so I want you to just I know you talked about your retreat, but what other things are you working on? What are you dreaming about right now? What is Milton dreaming about? That maybe hasn't come to be you don't have to give away too much, but what's a dream?

Speaker 2:

Well, I would say a dream that I am manifesting. I am the chair of the conference committee in the IEA, International Enneagram Association, and we have a conference coming up this year which is going to be July 24th through the 27th. I'm sure of these dates. I work with this so much every day, oh my goodness. But my dream is that this conference be such a unifying, fun, connected place for people where they can be authentic, where they make connections with people that they haven't met before around the world. That leads to tons of wonderful things friendships, business relationships, joy, any and everything.

Speaker 2:

I would say that right now is probably my biggest dream I'm manifesting because I mean it's something special. I don't know it's like. It's probably like what makes me the happiest in the world and I don't know it just does. My happiest thing is when I can be a part of creating something where people can get together and have a good time and just enjoy each other with good energy and like, have a great time. I don't even have to be in it or I just have to be able to see it and be a part of organizing it, and it just makes my heart overflow, and so that is probably the biggest dream that I have right now that I'm working to manifest into reality this summer.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, I'll be there. I'll be there. I, you're, I know, and you're so good at it, so you're so good at bringing people together. I don't know if I mean you just said it, but just to reflect that back to you, that you are so welcoming and you have an energy that invites people in and bringing people together, and it does it. I can see it on your face that it does bring you joy to see people collaborating, talking, communicating, enjoying one another's company, having a meal, having a deep conversation, right, because we're we're designed to live in community. We're not designed for isolation, we're designed to have community with people and thrive, and I just love the work that you do in that space and I can't wait for the conference, so excited. I know many of our friends are going to be there too, so shout out to our friends Bubble group.

Speaker 2:

Only they know what we're talking about, and that's exactly everybody else is like what the world are they talking about? It's okay, it's an inside thing. It's an inside thing.

Speaker 1:

Well, this has just been such a pleasure for me, milton, to connect with you. So tell people where they can find you, how to follow you, and I will put all of it in the show notes too, so it'll be easy for people to just click and click and go. But give a little idea of where people can find you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the best place to find me is on my website, kaizencareerscom. I have a lot of good information there. You can connect with me. I'm also on Instagram at Do it For the Grand Podcast. It'll probably be the best one to follow for my podcast. Like I said, I do have a podcast as well any of my podcasts and besides that, I would say, yeah, that's probably the best places because after that you can connect to any other thing that I'm doing.

Speaker 1:

From those two places, people can find out what you do and connect with you. Well, that's fantastic. Was there anything else that you would like to share? Any last nuggets of wisdom, encouragement?

Speaker 2:

I think my biggest thing of encouragement would be is for everyone to find a way to be empowered and empower other people. I think this is needed in our world at this point because I think we give power away a lot of times and we don't know it or we've been conditioned to do it. So I would say, like I would just charge people with making sure you feel empowered and you put yourself around people who empower you and you also be a source of empowering others, because I think it's needed and it's important and I love it. It's what we need.

Speaker 1:

That sounds like a great place to stop, so thank you, milton.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, thanks for inviting me.