Your Enneagram Friend

Transforming People-Pleasing into Empowered Boundaries with Elizabeth Stranzl

• Wendy Busby

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Uncover the secret: How to transform from a people-pleaser into a confident boundary-setter with Elizabeth Stranzl, an insightful boundaries and relationships coach. Elizabeth, once a school psychologist, shares her personal journey and professional insights, offering listeners a fresh perspective on the power of setting boundaries. Discover how coaching differs from therapy, providing a direct approach that empowers you to move from the present into a fulfilling future. Elizabeth’s story is a testament to the positive changes that come from mastering boundaries, enhancing communication, self-awareness, and empowerment across all areas of life.

Explore the true nature of personal boundaries and how they differ from rules in relationships. Learn the "boundary sandwich" method to communicate your needs effectively while maintaining healthy and meaningful connections. Elizabeth and I discuss the challenges of people-pleasing and the art of saying no without actually using the word. Through humor and positive reframing, we highlight strategies that enable you to respect your limits and emphasize self-awareness in understanding the consequences of people-pleasing behaviors.

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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where you are invited into an engaging and thought-provoking conversation about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to live the life you want. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce my guest. She is a remarkable coach who is on a mission to empower women to stand up for themselves by quitting people-pleasing and setting firm boundaries. She's here to share her insights and strategies on how women can assert their needs and wants more confidently. So whether you're looking to reclaim your voice or just curious about setting healthier boundaries, this podcast episode is just for you. Let's give a warm welcome to Elizabeth Stranzel.

Speaker 2:

Hey Elizabeth, hey, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm so happy you're here. So Elizabeth and I met on Instagram. We have been following one another's pages and I just love the work that you're doing, and so I was like I'm going to reach out to her and see if she'll be on my podcast, and I'm so glad you said yes.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, I was thrilled that you asked. Likewise, I really love what you do. I'm so curious to continue learning more and I'm happy to be here. I'm so curious to continue learning more and I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1:

Love it. Thanks so much. All right, so I always get started by asking my guest to tell us a little bit about who you are, where you're from and really anything it is that you feel comfortable in sharing.

Speaker 2:

Sure, I would love to do that. So I'm Elizabeth. I am, most importantly, a girl mom to a wonderful eight-year-old. I live in Harlem, new York, and I'm a former chronic people pleaser, who comes to this work with my own lived experience and also a little professional background. I'm formerly a school psychologist, now turned boundaries and relationships coach, and after experiencing the transformation for myself, it really just ignited the fire in me that much more to just help other women do the same for themselves. So I love talking about all things growth, empowerment, self-esteem, relationships and I'm so thrilled to be here to talk about that.

Speaker 1:

I love that, and your daughter's so cute too, and you guys look like identical twins.

Speaker 2:

Everyone says that yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So can you share a little bit about your journey into coaching? You mentioned that you used to be a school psychologist. What was it that really made you want to make that shift into coaching and specifically on focusing on helping women with people pleasing and boundaries?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think that my interest in coaching. So, as my psychologist career evolved, I ended up in more administrative roles and I missed the direct service aspect of doing individual and group therapy. So I was seeking some form of direct service role again. But I was intrigued by coaching because I think that well, I think therapy is an amazing tool and I think it's one tool in the toolbox and I think that coaching allows a pathway for people who maybe don't need to do as much deep trauma, work, family of origin, past history, mental health challenges but they need skills right now they're like I've dealt with my daddy issues. I've dealt with this thing, issues I've dealt with, you know, this thing I went through and I'm so glad that I did.

Speaker 2:

But I still don't know how to tell my boss I can't work on the weekends. I still don't know how to advocate for myself in the day to day, and I think that coaching therapy can do that as well. But I think coaching presents an avenue to really meet people exactly where they're at and start looking present, to future focused. And I think, like my style is a little more conducive to coaching. I, yes, I bring training and expertise, but I'm going to talk to you like your bestie and I'm going to be like, hey, girl, now what are we doing? Did you? Did you text them? What's our plan?

Speaker 2:

And so coaching allows for a little more of that humanity and a little more personalization.

Speaker 2:

And I think, lastly, also like in a therapeutic context, it's not appropriate for the therapist to be disclosing a lot of information about themselves or their own personal life, because they're centering it on the client. And in coaching the client is the focus. But I am able to bring more of my lived experience and say, when I was in that seat, here's what helped me and here are the exact things that I did to get from where you are to where I am now. So it's just, I think, an avenue that fit kind of the phase I was in in my life and the way that I wanted to work with women. And the reason that I focused on people pleasing and boundaries is because I think it encompasses things that benefit us in so many other areas, like the awareness, the communication, all of the skills that are wrapped up in setting boundaries and taking ownership over our lives and relationships benefits us in a million other arenas. And so it's about boundaries and people pleasing, but it's about so much more than that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's very applicable to all areas of life, whether that's your intimate relationship, your work, friendships, colleagues, your children, all of it. It's so applicable and I love the example or the definition that you gave of here's what a therapist does and then here's what a coach does. Cause I get asked that question all the time? You know, cause there's there is there is a difference, and I think it's important for people to understand that there is a difference. And you're right, it's like bringing in that personal experience and, you know, putting that coaching hat on, but then also like there's an opportunity to put that mentor hat on, and you know, for me and my Enneagram work, it's also putting a teacher hat on, because I'm teaching about the Enneagram and so in my own sessions I'm often switching those hats. So thanks for clarifying that, even from your own perspective, as that you do wear both those hats. You wear a therapist hat, you wear a coach hat, so awesome, all right. So what does people pleasing really look like and why is it so common amongst women?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, this is a great question. So I think for me, what people pleasing looks like is a consistent and harmful pattern of centering the needs of others at the expense of ourself. It doesn't mean compromise Compromise is a healthy part of relationships but when we are constantly bending, contorting, adjusting, anticipating, walking on eggshells, saying yes when we mean no, saying no when we mean yes it's all of this adjusting, bending, all of those things that we do for the sake of centering the needs of someone else at the expense of ourself. I think I would consider that to be people pleasing, and I think it becomes problematic when it's a pattern. It's not like okay, I compromised on Thanksgiving this year and made a little more food than I wanted to, and it kind of made me a little more tired than I care for, but I did it one time and it was done. This is a pattern that is pervasive across relationships, across environments, and it's harmful. We're exhausted, we don't trust our own voice anymore, we're resentful, we're stressed out and we're in like a constant fight or flight of like how can I make this person happy and what do I need to do and how do I do that? And I can't say no, because they need me, and it's just really catastrophic for our own well-being and sense of self.

Speaker 2:

I think there's a lot of reasons why it's so pervasive in women. I think that we're socialized to be good little girls from a very young age. Even well-intentioned women in our lives sometimes coach us this way because it's what they believe we need to survive. So, very young we're taught that to be a good girl, get along, don't make waves, don't cause a problem, be good in school, it's a constant conditioning that to speak up or speak out is undesirable and you should therefore just be accommodating. The North Star is to be so accommodating that everyone just has these great things to say about you. And then I think it gets more complicated as we get older, because there is societal pressure on women to have certain romantic relationship statuses, to be a mother, to have certain career markers, and the conditioning that we've had is that the outcomes are the result of how hard did we work to do everything right? So then this girl who was just a good little girl trying to be nice to her teacher, is now like well, I have to make a man happy to have a husband and I have to make my boss happy to do this, and I have to make my mother-in-law happy to be a good wife and I have to, and it just, it just snowballs. And I think that there's a lot, there's a lot of women who are starting to say like no, enough is enough, like we don't buy that, and I want to shift that.

Speaker 2:

And one other thing I'll say about this on why I think it's so pervasive is because there comes a point where some of these behaviors, like we get reinforced for this.

Speaker 2:

So if you are constantly accommodating, you hear positive feedback like oh, you are so helpful, gosh, she's so selfless, she's always doing for others.

Speaker 2:

And then our ego gets involved and it gets a little dicey because now we start to attach our identity and self-worth to these positive attributes that we hear people tell us we have. And so then when we realize, oh, I'm like really burnt out from saying yes, but I'd hate to say no because I want them to still think I'm helpful, I want them to still think I'm generous. So we really have to go through a reconciling process of can I still be generous and not say yes every time my family wants to borrow money? Can I still be helpful and not sign up for every committee at my kid's school because it exhausts me. So I think it starts out with a lot of social conditioning that compounds as an adult, and then we kind of take some of that on our own because of how we've been reinforced for that, and so the process of setting boundaries is really a deconstruction of these mindsets that just don't serve us anymore. And then you get into all the technical and tactical of like okay, but how do I actually do it?

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, yeah, that's such a great example, or a good definition. I love how you are really clear on what that means, and I could see all of those things in varying degrees, right, depending on the person's conditioning, like you said their family of origin probably their attachment theory plays into that too, right and how they feel about themselves and personality structuring. It's about decreasing discomfort and increasing pleasure, and we use both of those things and that's what I hear you saying. It's like I feel uncomfortable If I say no. I feel uncomfortable and I don't want to feel uncomfortable, so I'm going to say yes because that minimizes the discomfort that I'm having, but ultimately, what it does is that it makes you not happy with yourself because, right, you're not being honest with who you are and honest with-.

Speaker 2:

Yes, if I could put 100 exclamation points on what you just said. The biggest irony of people pleasing to avoid discomfort is you are already uncomfortable, but what you are choosing is a familiar, self-sabotaging form of discomfort for the sake of someone else's affirmation and engagement in the relationship. And it's like you're already uncomfortable, you're stressed out, you're exhausted, you're stretched in too many places, you don't feel good about yourself or how you're showing up, and you're telling yourself well, it would be really uncomfortable if this person didn't like me or didn't like the boundary, and it's like. So you're just choosing.

Speaker 1:

Really, you're choosing a self-sabotaging form of discomfort over the discomfort that may come with standing up for yourself, right, with the conflict or the confrontation, which, ultimately because I work with people in conflict too right, and it's like avoiding conflict is a conflict in and of itself. First, and avoiding conflicts creates conflict. It's like the avoidance of it, right. And so, yeah, let's just say what we mean, 100%.

Speaker 2:

A lot of times it doesn't go nearly as bad as we've hyped it up to be in our mind Sometimes yes, but often no.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay. So how then do you define healthy boundaries? What is a working definition of a healthy boundary?

Speaker 2:

I think boundaries are personal guidelines that inform how we show up in the world and in our relationships. So they are guardrails for ourselves that guide what we will or won't discuss, where we will or will not go, conversations we will or will not have, behaviors we will or will not engage in. One of the biggest myths that I think are points of clarity in the boundary space is boundaries versus rules.

Speaker 2:

So rules govern the behavior of other people. So I have a rule in my house we don't wear shoes, so when guests come over they have to take their shoes off. I have a rule that my daughter has to go to bed by 8pm. On school nights I have a rule on the amount of time she can be on her tablet. These are decisions I have made that govern the behavior of other people.

Speaker 2:

Boundaries govern ourselves and what we will or will not do, because ultimately, except for a parent-child relationship or where there are imbalances of power, we really can't control ultimately other people. So boundaries are the decisions we make for ourselves. So a boundary that I have personally, that I learned the hard way, is I cannot participate in conversations with a lot of loud yelling or with name calling. It triggers me. I shut down. I either snap or just shut down totally. That's a personal boundary. A rule would be you can't yell at me. A boundary says if there is yelling I'm going to leave the room or I'm going to end the call or I'm not going to participate. So you can stay over there and yell for the next four hours. If that's what you choose to do, I'm not going to participate because that doesn't work for me. So I think boundaries are these guidelines of what we will or will not do, and the purpose of them is not to push people away. It's to create the conditions for us to remain in relationships with people we desire to remain in relationships with.

Speaker 2:

That's another big myth and misunderstanding is that boundaries are brick walls and they're meant to close everyone out and they're just mean and cold and rigid and it's like actually no, because when I had no boundaries I was giving people the worst of me because I was exhausted, resentful, stressed out and anxious all the time. Once I set boundaries around, oh, I really shouldn't take phone calls after X pm because I actually need to sleep. So if you call me, and unless it's an emergency, I'll talk to you tomorrow. Or I can't go out four nights a week, even if I feel guilty, like all the other friends are going, because then I'm wiped out and I'm exhausted and falling asleep at the party, like I can't participate in arguments, conversations, with yelling, like. Once we realize what works for us and we actually hold to that, then we are a healthier, more evolved human and we have so much more to offer. So we really have to break this misunderstanding that boundaries are intentionally harmful mean and that their purpose is to cut everyone out. That's totally untrue.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that their purpose is to be mean to the other. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Not at all.

Speaker 1:

So I'd like to say, if you feel comfortable to stay on this boundary that you talked about about yelling like that triggers you and it's just a no for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So what happens when you encounter that? Can you just be really practical and like? This is what I do and also from what I understand, my understanding of boundaries is that boundaries have to be communicated. Yes, so how would you take that scenario? How would you communicate that to someone? And then, if that boundary is crossed, then what would you do?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so we would love for people to in our lives to be mind readers and just like perfectly, wouldn't that be amazing? They're not. Okay. So even people that have very sincere intentions, who are very emotionally well-developed themselves, they're not mind readers. So the first thing is actually for us to get clear for ourselves, like what is it that I need and why? How do I know? Okay, so let's presume that we've done all of that work and I'm like no, this is really a trigger for me.

Speaker 2:

This is something that I tell people early on, and it doesn't always have to be serious. Like you can find lighthearted or more casual ways to bring these things into a conversation as you're getting to know someone romantically, a new friend, into a conversation as you're getting to know someone romantically a new friend, a coworker. Like it doesn't have to be like okay, sit down, we have to talk about all my boundaries, because if blah, blah, blah, blah, like that, that's just an unnecessary level of seriousness. But what I like to do is there's four, I think there's four ways that you can set boundaries. What I like to do and my preference, is the way that I refer to as positive framing, which is where you lead with what do you know about yourself, and you use what I call like a boundary sandwich. So you start with affirmation, you insert your boundary, you close with an affirmation.

Speaker 2:

So an example might be hey, girl, I have been doing so much work on myself and I've really been trying to think about how I can be a better friend to you and to other people, and one of the things I learned is like if we're having a tough conversation and there starts to be yelling or a name calling, like I just shut down and then I'm snapping at you, I'm not participating, and then we can't get through whatever the conflict is to get back on track with our friendship, which is what I think we both want.

Speaker 2:

So, moving forward, if that type of stuff comes up in conversation, it's not personal, I'm just I'm going to remove myself, I want you to know why, and then I'm going to re-engage. I'd love to re-engage when that's not present so we can actually resolve the conflict, because I really care about you, I love this relationship, I hope we stay friends for a very long time and I just want to be honest about some of the things I need so that I can set us up for success. That is a lot different from girl. Don't yell at me, because you know I'm going to leave the room.

Speaker 1:

Like it's totally different.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, and it doesn't have to be mean and scary, it can be. This is what I know about myself. Here's exactly what I need and why. Here's what's going to happen.

Speaker 2:

Because, like, another way to do it is previewing a consequence, letting people know look, this is what I need, I'm not going to participate. If that happens, then what? And if someone is listening to this or doing the work and they're like consequence I'm not talking about like punishment, the way like a parent might punish a child the consequence is just what occurs next as a result of what happened before. So there has to be a next step, because if you want to set boundaries but you're not ready to implement a consequence when it's not honored, then your boundaries are just suggestions and people will realize, like that's optional, because you told me you had this boundary, I didn't honor it and then nothing else happened. Then it's like, okay, I shouldn't really mean that. So if we want to be serious about boundaries, we have to be able to be clear on the consequences, and if you can communicate that to people in advance, even better, so that there's not any surprises.

Speaker 2:

And you cannot control the other person's response to your enforcing of your own boundaries, right and that's a big part of the preparation work and role play that we do in my coaching program, because you don't ever, no one would ever go into a job interview without preparing. I mean, maybe they would, but not if you really cared about the job, right.

Speaker 1:

If you want to have a successful outcome.

Speaker 2:

You're going to prepare, you're going to think about, well, what questions might they ask me? How will I answer it? If they ask me that you want to think about these critical boundaries in the same way, meaning take a minute and think about how might this person respond? And if they respond negatively, what am I going to say to that? Like, actually write down, like, what are you going to say and what are you going to do so that, when you're in that moment and they're behaving badly, what can happen is if, if either we haven't really done the mindset work, so we don't really believe we deserve it, or we have done the mindset work but we haven't prepared properly.

Speaker 2:

When we are in the moment and we've set this boundary and someone pushes back, we're going to backpedal. Okay, yeah, you're right, sorry, you know it was too much. I totally get it. You know I was being a little unreasonable and we back it all the way up, and then that activates shame, discouragement, disappointment in ourselves. We've let ourselves down because we know we really deserve it, we know it's not unreasonable, but we've now, on top of the fact that the boundary is not set, we're also now beating ourselves up about letting ourselves down and then we're starting to think see, boundaries don't work. I should have never done it. And boundaries do work. But you have to be prepared and you have to be thoughtful, and you don't ever want the first time you're setting the boundary that you don't want the the moment of boundary setting to be the first time that you're trying to think about well, what am I going to say and how might I respond if it goes, if it goes left?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, or in what I would imagine, or in an conversation that's already elevated right Already in a space where it's not calm. Those conversations have to happen in a place where it's peaceful, everybody's listening, they're participating in active listening, seeking understanding all of that Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Because when we're triggered we're not thinking as clearly because now we're emotionally escalated. So it's like the same idea. I use the analogy to people of like if you've ever a lot of health practitioners will say, if you want to try to eat healthier, put your healthy food near the front of the fridge so that when you open the fridge it's easy to grab and go. Boundary communication should also be easy to grab and go because in the moment when you're triggered, you don't want to be relying on your emotional state at the time to come up with the response. You want to already have it quick in your repertoire because you've thought about it, you've practiced it, you're ready to go so that when someone responds in a way that is triggering, you're not scrambling for, like, what do I say? Because you've practiced it and it's easily accessible to you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I would imagine that in your coaching program, like you did mention, you do that role-playing. You just role-play with your clients and like, okay, pretend I'm that person, you're this person, let's talk it out, let's say the words, let's get it, let's, let's feel comfortable saying them in the mouth, on the tongue, getting them out. I would. That's probably really helpful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because I haven't really met a lot of people that disagree with boundaries as a concept. Sure, people can probably think about what it might sound like, but when you're actually in the seat it's really different and it's like you got to get your reps up. You got to get your reps up. You got to get your muscle memory. You got to build that, you got to build that, and the only way to do it is to practice. So yeah we make it fun.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what would you say is the most common boundary that people are curious about? Thinking about enforcing not enforcing, but placing.

Speaker 2:

I think that the biggest, definitely the biggest theme is people saying yes to things they do not want to say yes to, so boundaries like around their time and their commitments, and saying yes to avoid conflict with people who are difficult. I think that those are very common, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So do you help people have find, have find ways to say no without saying no, yeah, sure, do that, yes.

Speaker 2:

Can you give us a couple of? Examples of of how do you say, how do you say?

Speaker 1:

no without saying no. So just as a starting place, before people get get really confident with like no, it's okay for me to just say no. No is a full sentence. I think that certainly that some of the people that I've worked with it's like they're like I can't even get that word out of my mouth. So then what?

Speaker 2:

That's step 10, right? They may want to come in with step one or two, yeah, so okay. So it's the holiday season right now, and the common point of discussion is who's going to cook what, who's going to host and who's going to bring something. So I was working with a client whose family wanted her to bring like six things, and she was like I'm going to be up all night. I have such a busy, hectic work schedule right now. I just want to tell them no, but I can't tell them no. And so we did a little role play and I was like why don't you try this? Oh, my God, I know my cooking is so good. Right, thank you for that compliment.

Speaker 2:

I wish I could bring six. You know, if I brought six I'd be up till two in the morning and then it would be falling asleep on your couch at Thanksgiving. But I would love to bring four. I can probably cook three, maybe even buy one at the store. So you let me know which four you want me to bring and I will just be thrilled to do that. I'm so excited to see you there. So you said no, I'm not bringing six, because I'm not going to be falling asleep on your couch at the get together. But I didn't say the word no, and it was. There was an affirmation, it was a solutions oriented response, there was humor to keep it light and there was a commitment and a clear next step. And there was not a window for them to push back because it wasn't like would that be okay with you, do you mind? I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

We're just like apologizing in advance, and like we're setting a boundary and almost taking it back in the same moment, and it's like no, don't do that.

Speaker 1:

Just like, yeah, that's not necessary. And in that example it wasn't just a flat out no, I can't do six, but I can do four. Right and there? And then comes the conversation. That's such a great example. So what does the role staying on this theme, what does the role of self-awareness play in recognizing the need to stop people pleasing? Do people know that they're doing it, or it's like that conditioning that we've talked about already? How do they? What role does self-awareness play in this?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly, self-awareness is like 95% of the ballgame here, like in most things, I would say. The majority of people that I work with, they definitely know that they're experiencing the consequences of people pleasing. So they know that they're tired, they know that they're stressed out, they know that they're frustrated and resentful. Many of them will will know as well that they're people pleasing. Sometimes there's a projection of like, well, I feel these things because of this other person in the relationship and help me, you know, change their behavior. And then we have to kind of reroute that back to like, well, what can you, what can you contribute? Like, what can you change about yourself and how you're showing up. So I think most people they definitely know they're experiencing this, the negative side effects of people pleasing. Many of them know that they are people pleasing.

Speaker 2:

Where I see a lot of people struggle and I don't really blame them because I think we're a society of extremes but I don't think we always do so well at understanding what role we are playing in the outcomes that we are experiencing. And what I mean by that is we tend to either beat ourselves up and engage in a lot of shame and blame of like oh, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, I'll never do that. Or it's the other extreme of like seeing ourselves as being victimized fully by other people's bad behavior, when the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, even if other people, objectively, are behaving very badly. If we are continuing to go along with it, then we are playing a role in the outcome that we're creating, and so I think what's transformational about self-awareness within boundary setting and people pleasing is helping people to hold a healthy and kind version of accountability that doesn't shame and blame and beat themselves up, but does tell the truth about the way that their choices are contributing to the outcome.

Speaker 2:

And I think that you know, if I don't do anything else right in coaching, I hope to do that in a way that is loving and that honors like. It's not about beating you up, it's just about being honest about how are we here.

Speaker 1:

So like when you say this and then that happens.

Speaker 2:

Or when you did this and then that happens, you know, like like really being able to pinpoint the exact behavior, so that people are like okay, I can fix that. Because what happens when we don't understand circumstances in terms of concrete behaviors is it doesn't feel solvable. We feel like we have a me problem and not a skills problem, or we have a me problem and not a skills problem, or we have a me problem and not a communication problem, when the reality is like no, it's not a you problem.

Speaker 2:

You're amazing, you are amazing and deserving and fun and generous and all these things, and you can still be that with a few behavior changes that will change the outcomes you're experiencing.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great. It's owning your part and participating in solving the relationship problem or whatever you're facing. So we haven't really touched on the Enneagram much, but I wanted to kind of bring it in just a little bit. And I know that you're a type one. We've already we talked about that offline. So type ones typically struggle with saying no when they feel like it's their responsibility to do it all if other people aren't doing enough. And there's this way that it leads them to take on too much and making it hard to keep up with their commitments to their relationships and to their projects. So, as a type one, does that resonate with you Before you did all of this amazing work that you've been doing on yourself? Does that be like yep, as a type one that hits it on the nail?

Speaker 2:

100% when I learned that I was like I feel seen. I feel seen, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, so I won't go through all of the types, but I will just. Yeah, so I won't go through all of the types, but I will just point people to my Instagram page where I did a series on boundaries and I do talk about how each type struggles with boundaries and how they can engage in this conversation with boundaries. And it's just, it does. It is real, and I think that the Enneagram is an amazing place to start for people if they want to explore self-awareness. It can be such a great launching pad. It's an amazing tool, so okay. So, keeping on with where we are, I wanted to shift into talking about some fears. So what would you say are typical fears that women face when they begin this boundary setting process?

Speaker 2:

I think a big one is fear of abandonment, or fear that relationships they're in will end, and that isn't just romantic. It can happen in romantic relationships, but it's not exclusive to romantic. They feel like if I don't continue to do X, y, z well, this person is going to leave or the relationship is going to drastically change. I think they fear disappointing people. I think that they going back to what we talked about earlier with identity I think they fear the reaction that they may have from some people. They fear they may lose some kind of respect or good graces with certain people if they say no.

Speaker 2:

I think we fear change because it's unpredictable and unknown. And I think we also fear that we're now going to have to just manage a new problem, which is the person's reaction to our boundary. So they're like yeah, okay, maybe I'm going to get rid of this problem, but now I'm going to have to deal with oh. Then she got her feelings hurt, so then she called my dad and now he's calling me, being like why did you say that to your mom? And you know this is fear that, like now I'm going to disrupt relationships with others and I'm going to have to now manage everyone else's feelings about my boundaries.

Speaker 1:

I think those are common.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would agree with that. When I started my own healing journey and therapy and started to work through some of this stuff that we're talking about, my mom said to me one time like what happened to you? You used to be happy, yeah, and it was like I am, I am now getting happy. And it was just. I was just, yeah, I was just, I was setting down, I was setting some emotional boundaries because as a four four struggle setting emotional boundaries or little emotional sponges, and it's like I needed to set a healthy boundary around myself for my own wellbeing. I can't absorb all of your stuff anymore. And that was interpreted as that. You know, I'm different, I'm unhappy, all of that. And I was like no, actually I'm quite happy, but it was hard, it was tough and it's still tough. Actually I'm quite happy. Yeah, it was hard.

Speaker 2:

It was tough and it's still tough, but yeah, and I think it's something that people maybe don't know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to no go ahead.

Speaker 2:

I think something that people are sometimes unprepared for is we tend to think of grief as only associated with physical death, but there is a lot of grief in the loss of dreams and in the loss of dreams we had for relationships, and sometimes, when we go about setting boundaries, our fears around everyone's going to leave me is just anxiety, and sometimes it is an intuition that certain relationships will have to change or end if we start to, you know, demand a certain level of respect or hold ourselves to certain standards, and I think that we resist accepting this because it's hard and painful, and so what shows up a lot is like the denial and bargaining forms of grief, which is like no, but if I, okay, let me just do this, or let me just do that and let me just do this, and where we need to go sometimes is to sadness and to acceptance.

Speaker 2:

That, like this relationship is not conducive with the healthier version of myself that has self-respect, and most of the relationships will survive boundaries. Some of them may not. I think it's in our best interest to be open to grieving that process and allowing ourselves to feel sad that, hey, I really had fun hanging out with that person and I wish we still could, and it sucks, that we can't, grieving that the relationship is not what you wish it was, yeah, and because there's not a possibility for that, that's right.

Speaker 1:

You can't force someone into working with you on creating a healthy relationship, so you have to. What I've learned is that I have to let people be themselves. Yeah, I just have to let people be themselves. Yeah, and that gives me freedom to be me, and not and not, you know, adapting myself to make other people feel better about themselves, cause that was me. That was what I would do. I would adapt, I would diminish myself, make myself small so that other people felt better, and when I got to the point where I was like I'm not doing that anymore, it was a little messy at first, right, yep.

Speaker 2:

It always is. That's okay, it's a change process.

Speaker 1:

It's a change process, right, it could look a little bit messy. And what I'm wondering, because I did experience this a little bit too in that messy stage where people are trying on this new way of being, have you seen people set too firm of boundaries? Oh, definitely Can you talk a little about that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a skill set, so we're developing over time. We're not perfect up front, we're not perfect ever, but we're not, you know, you get better at it over time and sometimes we don't totally know what we need, we know what we don't like, we know what's hurting us and we have an idea about what might be better fit. So we try it, and then sometimes we're like, oh, that was an overreach or oh, okay, you know what? Actually that was a little underdeveloped boundary that I need to. I need to restrict myself a little more, need to make shifts.

Speaker 2:

I think one thing that I see happen a lot is individuals that desire to set boundaries with a certain member of their family. So they may say, like, well, I'm not going to family gatherings anymore, I'm not going to the family reunion, I'm not going to the cookout, I'm not going to the thing, and when they're doing that, they're thinking about the pain that comes from being around a certain one individual, and when they're doing that, they're thinking about the pain that comes from being around a certain one individual, and so they're trying to create the maximum amount of separation, let's say, from one person. The unintended consequence of that is now. You're, then, disconnecting yourself from all the other people in your family who you do want to continue to build relationships with, and even in that case, of some of the people that are challenging, maybe it would be okay if you only saw them for a couple hours. You may not have that same negative experience as when you saw them for six, seven, eight, ten hours or you went on a weekend trip.

Speaker 2:

So I think sometimes we go to in a desire to protect ourself or to do the right thing. We sometimes go too far and then when we get there, we realize, oh well, I didn't like the stress that comes with spending 48 hours straight with my mom, but I really miss her when I don't see her at all. So how can I build back in something that is more comfortable? And I think then there's this negotiating process in the middle, and this is another point at which we're really vulnerable to giving up and really vulnerable to beating ourselves up and being like, oh, boundaries don't work.

Speaker 2:

You see what happened? It tore my whole family apart. Now you know, and it's like well, the particular boundary you tried wasn't the right fit. Can we try something else? Because there's probably a lot in the middle and, I think, having grace with ourselves and realizing, like so many of us and I used to do this too beat ourselves up for not knowing how to set boundaries that nobody ever taught us to set. So it's like how would you know that you know like we just have to go around in the dark and learn our way and you will learn your way.

Speaker 2:

You know it's a bit of experimentation and being open to that as learning. The more inclined we are to lean to situations from a learning stance versus a blaming stance, the faster we accelerate our growth because we're not caught up in ego. We're just really trying to understand what happened and how we could change it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I'd like to stay on that example of you. Know you've got the whole family but there's this one individual that feels unsafe to you, that you need to have some separation from, but, like you said, that keeps you then from the rest of the people that you do want to be with. So, say you then go and you're like, okay, I'm going to go, is there a healthy way to set a boundary with just that one person in the context of the social setting?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think, absolutely. I mean, and I think it depends on what the triggers are. So, like if I was working with a young woman who it was the topics of conversation with her mom that were the most challenging. Like her mom wanted to talk about her weight, her romantic relationships, her career, and it was just like too much, and so it wasn't that like they couldn't be together and have fun in a group setting. But she had to really get clear on, like, well, what is it about being with your mom? Like does she physically make you uncomfortable? Does she ask you for money all the time? Like what, what are the things? And it was really about certain topics of conversation.

Speaker 2:

So in that case it was about front loading and having those conversations in advance to say, mom, I, I, it really hurts me when we talk about these topics, and even if you don't mean for it to be hurtful, you know we just see it differently and I just I'm not going to talk about that this time. I really want to come because I want to see you and I want to see everyone else, but I'm not going to talk about these certain things and I'm letting you know so that you don't bring them up with me, because if you forget or you know you do it anyway, I'm going to remove myself and I would hate to have to leave, you know, after I make the trip down there, because I am really excited to see everyone. So I think it's just getting clear on, like, what are the specific things? For other people it's like it's not any one particular thing, but it's just the amount of time they start to feel suffocated.

Speaker 2:

Or it's certain unspoken expectations, like when you come over you're going to do our laundry and cook and do all these things for us, and it's like let's just get clear on what specifically is the challenge, narrow down the pain point a little, then brainstorm okay, well, what do I think I need, and then what conversations do I need to have in advance? It all comes down to communication, doesn. Well, what do I think I need, and then what conversations do I need to have in advance?

Speaker 1:

It all comes down to communication, doesn't it Elizabeth? A hundred percent Communication, communication, communication, A hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, which is another skill set? Right? Communication is a skill set and it can be learned. It can be worked on a skill set and it can be learned, it can be worked on. Well, this has been just I love the conversation that we're having. What is a couple of things like, what is kind of a final piece of advice that you would give someone who is struggling to kind of break this cycle? Where would they start? What is a step one, easy, doable for someone who's listening? That is really resonating with the conversation that we're having. It's like okay, I'm ready to start today. What would they do in just this immediacy of I want to do this?

Speaker 2:

I think the most important and very practical step that anyone can do that doesn't require tons of time, money or any special resources is to start listening to the voice in your head that you think has kept you in this pattern prior to now, because all of our behavior is motivated by a belief system and that belief system is informed by that tape that's playing in our head and sometimes it's our voice. Sometimes it's the voice of our parents, our teachers, our boss, social media, whoever it is. You absolutely have to be clear on what are the things you are telling yourself about yourself that are motivating your behavior. And if you have a sheet of paper, you have the notes app in your phone. You have any type of way to record anything.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I'm a I'm a handwritten journal kind of girl. I still love the old school Other folks. The app does just as well. Whatever works for you, but get that out, get that like, take that out from your head, get it out on paper and read it back to yourself and start to ask critical questions Like does this work for me anymore? This might have been what I needed at a time or this might've been what worked for me in the past, but does this work for me? Do I agree with this?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, where did this come from? Yeah, where does this come from? Whose voice is this? Those are all great questions. Whose voice is this that I'm hearing? And that comes all the way back to that process of self-awareness. Absolutely, we've got to turn inward, we've got to look inward and see what is going on with me. Absolutely, that's such a great, absolutely great first step. And what is that phrase Like? Self-awareness is the first step of change.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, awareness is the first step of this. If your problem is the first step of solving it, yeah, whatever, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that starts with paying attention, and oftentimes it's paying attention. You don't have to do anything yet, Just pay attention. Pay attention to your interactions with other people. Pay attention to what you're saying to yourself when you're alone. Pay attention to what you're saying to yourself when you're in an interaction with other people. Try to zoom out and look a little bit from a further view, Just taking notes. Like you said, you don't have to change today. You don't have to make a change. That comes often later. I also like for people to understand the difference between self-observation and self-observation is observing yourself after the fact. I'm just blanking out for some reason, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Observing yourself after the fact. Yeah, Observing yourself after the fact.

Speaker 2:

I'm like where did my?

Speaker 1:

brain go for a moment Right and then self-awareness is happening in the moment. It's like being aware in the moment that, oh, this is happening and I can do something about it right now if I have the skills and the tools in which to do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I totally just blanked there for a moment. I was like, oh it was right there.

Speaker 1:

And then something I say all the time it happens.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I read a book by Eckhart Tolle where he talks about this idea of like detaching from your thoughts and feelings and recognizing them almost like it's like a blip passing in front of you, like, oh, there goes that, oh, there goes that. And what I love about it is that empowers us to not have to own those things as like the core of who we are, but rather see them as a thought process we're engaging in right now. Are, but rather see them as a thought process we're engaging in right now. So to your point of self-awareness is like in the moment, like oh, I was just tempted to say yes and I definitely want to say no, and then self-observation is like, let me think about this week and what were all the things that happened.

Speaker 1:

Both are critical and that I said yes, but I really wanted to say no, but in the moment I didn't have that awareness. But now I do, and so now what? And then the question becomes then now what? Can I go back and can I say, like I thought about this, I actually cannot do this, or whatever right? Then that work comes after the fact. So yeah, Well, can you, as we finish how do people follow you learn about what you're doing? I know that you have this fantastic thing called Boundary Bootcamp, so can you talk a little bit about that and tell people, when you're doing it, how to learn about it? Because I, I mean, I just think that that program is amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you. It's super fun, like what I want people to know about. It mostly is like it's a safe space of amazing women who are just like all right girl, let's get ourselves together, cause we deserve so much more. So the best way to find me is at my second home, which is Instagram. Boundaries over BS is my handle on Instagram. You can find me there.

Speaker 2:

I recently started playing around with TikTok, but that was very experimental, so if you want the goods and you want, like, the gems and the stuff that's already out there. Find me on Instagram, Boundaries Over BS, and I am running a Boundary Bootcamp on December 17th. It's on Zoom, but if you sign up you can catch the replay and then into the new year we'll have tons of new offerings. But Boundary Bootcamp is like a 90 minute online group session where we actually we do do tons of role play scenarios. It's fun, it's application based. It's like, really right, Get to the stuff. This is not. You're not going to come and just listen to me. You know, go on and on and on for 90 minutes. That is not what we're doing. We're like if you're not comfortable sharing your own scenario, no problem.

Speaker 2:

We will role play with pop culture, with my own life, with other things. But the idea is to get you in the motion, practicing, building your skills, and actually we're going through. I have a 10 step process or framework for boundary setting and we're actually going through that workbook in the group. So when you leave there, you're taking with you a plan that's already been drafted out of like what am I going to say to this person tomorrow? Because we have to start making these things concrete and really push ourselves towards action. So the focus is connection, skill building and keeping it accessible so that people are reminded that, like, boundary setting isn't scary, it's something you can and absolutely should do, and it doesn't have to be so difficult. And we do that together. So it's a it's really a great time. I love it.

Speaker 1:

I'm such a girl's girl and I love anything where women are supporting each other you know as their best, and so and I'll add all of that to the show notes too I'll add a link for your Instagram page. I'll add a link for your website so people can go on there and find you, and I highly highly recommend that anyone who's listening does, because you are amazing and inspiring. I have an Enneagram coach friend that lives in New York and I said, hey, I'm going to be. Hey, I met Elizabeth and she lives in New York too, and she goes oh, I follow her on Instagram. Oh, cool, isn't that such an interesting thing? She's like oh, I've seen her stuff, I love it, I can't wait to listen. I have already people who are excited about listening to our conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I feel the same about you. I love all things like personality, self-awareness, all of that, so I've been diving in and when anyone's listening and you haven't seen on Wendy's Instagram, I'm always like it's me. I feel seen, hi, it's me. This is so relatable and I think people are really encouraged by what you offer, because information is power and especially about ourselves, you know so.

Speaker 1:

I love it. Well, thanks so much. I appreciate that. Well, this has been just a pleasure and I will reach out to you before I publish this, which will be in a couple of weeks, and then we'll go from there and see what happens next. But I wish you a very happy holiday, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and all of that.

Speaker 2:

Same to you as well. Thank you so much. Bye Elizabeth, Bye-bye.