Your Enneagram Friend
Your Enneagram Friend podcast is where engaging, casual, and irresistibly fun conversations meet deep, thought-provoking discussions about the Enneagram.
In each episode, I invite my "friends" to dive into the fascinating world of the Enneagram with me, exploring how this ancient tool illuminates our personalities, strengthens our relationships, and guides us on the path to personal growth. Whether you're an Enneagram expert or just curious about what your type might mean for you, there's a place for you here.
So, grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and let's start the journey of discovery together. Welcome, friends, to a space where the Enneagram doesn't just inspire us—it connects us.
Hosted by Wendy Busby, Enneagram Life + Relationship Coach
Your Enneagram Friend
Uncovering the Heart Types: Insights into Enneagram Subtypes 2, 3, and 4 with Wendy & Molly
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Unravel the complex world of Enneagram subtypes with us as we journey through types 2, 3, and 4 in this enlightening episode. Ever wondered how individuals of the same type can behave so differently? Wendy Busby and her insightful teaching partner Molly Knutson-Keller help crack this enigma wide open by exploring the hidden layers added by instinctual drives: self-preservation, social, and sexual. Dive into Wendy's personal story as a self-preservation four and Molly's perspective as a self-preservation two, and see how curiosity and self-compassion become vital tools in understanding these intricate traits.
We hope you'll join us in this intriguing exploration of the heart types, setting the stage for our next episode on the head center types. Remember, your journey of self-discovery and understanding begins with a single step of curiosity.
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Hello and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where you are invited into an engaging and thought-provoking conversation about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to have a more fulfilling relationship with yourself and with the important people in your life. Today, I'm joined again by my friend and teaching partner, molly Knutson Keller. Molly and I are passionate about bringing you topics that will help you in your Enneagram journey. Our mission at Enneagram in Action is to inspire you to get curious about yourself and the people around you so that you can thrive in every area of your life. We're all about making personal growth, using the wisdom of the Enneagram, simple and accessible to you. Hey, molly.
Speaker 2:Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good to see you today. Yeah, all right. So this is our second installment of our three-part series on subtypes. Today we're covering the subtypes of type 2, 3, and 4. But before we get started, I want to do a quick review of what subtypes are and why it's important to understand them, and I also want to encourage you to go back and listen to part one of this series, which was published on September 14th, and in that one we cover the subtypes of types eight, nine and one.
Speaker 1:All right, so the Enneagram of nine breaks into three centers the body center, which consists of types eight, nine and one. The heart center, which consists of types two, three and four. And the head center, which consists of types five, six and seven. So this gives us nine Enneagram types. Now, each of the nine types breaks into three subtypes, which ultimately gives us a total of 27 subtypes. So I know that that's a lot to take in, especially if you're new to the Enneagram, but just stay with us, because I promise that this is all going to come together and make sense.
Speaker 1:So how do we get subtype? Well, we get subtype when we mix our Enneagram type with our dominant instinctual drive, and the instinctual drives are self-preservation, social and sexual, which is also referred to as one-to-one. For example, I'm an Enneagram four and my dominant instinctual drive is self-preservation. So you may have heard me refer to myself as a self-preservation four. Molly is a self-preservation two. My husband, josh, is a sexual nine, and what's really cool about understanding the subtypes is that it gives us a much deeper and more nuanced view of each personality type and it really helps explain why two people the same Enneagram type might behave or look really differently from one another. Molly, do you have anything to add before we get started on the subtype sub-2, 3, 4?
Speaker 2:No, I think that's a great intro and summary is always helpful to me when thinking about those instincts. The dominant instinct is that it's like a wild animal and we need to keep it on the leash. And so it really is as present in our, in our being, as is the type.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really really good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So, molly, since you're our resident self-preservation too, can you tell us about it? Well?
Speaker 2:sure, and I I'm laughing a little bit because as Wendy and I were preparing this podcast, I was I was reading the self-preservation too and getting a little bit embarrassed, and I want to just acknowledge that sometimes that can happen when something is hitting a little close to home. And so an invitation always to use curiosity with compassion, with self-compassion. So whatever you're listening to, as we're trying to be honest with ourselves and really the expression of who we are through our behaviors, really channel that honesty as paired with curiosity with compassion, so does that make sense.
Speaker 1:It totally makes sense, and we and we want to be honest with you too. We want to be honest about what it looks like and what it might feel like, and so that you, so that we're giving you good information, we're teaching you well like. That's really important to us, and there's lots of, there's lots of things about the Enneagram out there, and we really want to stay true to how we learned it, which we we both learned are trained by the CP Enneagram Academy, and Beatrice Chestnut and Ronia Pies are very passionate about teaching good theory. Ronyopies are very passionate about teaching good theory, and so it might seem like this seems all negative, but I promise you that it's really worth understanding, it's really worth taking an honest look, and this is all. Much of this is blind spots, so we don't even really know until we start to pay attention and until someone can kind of guide us in it. So just stay with us. Thank you all for being here and thank you for listening. We really do appreciate you tuning in and any questions you have.
Speaker 2:Ok, I'm ready. Self-preservation two let's do this. The self-preservation two is named the me first, or privileged, and we are a unique blend of charm and complexity. Picture someone who epitomizes cuteness and playfulness. The essence of this type revolves around important themes of self-importance irresponsibility, humor, playfulness, hypersensitivity, which means we can take things deeply, deeply, personally, and they may not be that personal, but to know that has been so helpful in my life. So this hypersensitivity and charm.
Speaker 2:Self-preservation twos have an uncanny ability to engage those around them, often getting what they need without ever having to explicitly or directly ask for it. This is what's called the counter type of two, and they're not as overtly prideful, which is the passion. In fact, pride is harder to spot in self-preservation twos because they're somewhat ambivalent about connecting and giving. They can come across as more guarded and maybe even a little hesitant or withdrawn about reaching out. So what's really going on beneath the charming exterior? For we self-preservation twos? Well, it's an unconscious drive for care and affection. It's this idea that by just being sweet and endearing, we should naturally be considered the most important person in the room. This childlike perspective, this subtype, often harbors an insistence on being cared for like a child for simply being themselves, not because of anything that they give to others, as the other type twos tend to do. And yet there is this compulsive side to the giving that's driven by this deep fear related to survival, to that survival instinct. This type two tends to feel more burdened by the idea of helping others and often struggles with trust more than other twos. So the youthful charm, it isn't just a phase, they carry it into adulthood, using it to secure special treatment long after childhood has passed. It can take them a long time Okay, it can take us a long time to become self-supporting in life or to figure out what we want to be.
Speaker 2:When we grow up On a deep level, it's this reluctance to take care of oneself, because it can seem like the people who maybe didn't take care of us early on are getting off the hook. Self-preservation twos can be a little anxious when we have to do things for ourselves, and I know this to be true. And, while we might not like to admit it, we can have our moments of sulking or retreating when things don't go their way. The word I often use also is wallowing. I go to a wallowing place when the person that they charmed didn't do what they wanted them to do. The interesting thing is the self-preservation too can have a self-image of independence and can have a resistance to accepting help, and we have a blind spot when it comes to recognizing our own dependence. And this pattern, this push and pull pattern. Interestingly, a lot of self-preservation twos might seem similar to type six because of fear. But while six's fear is more generalized, a self-preservation's two fear is intensely focused on their relationships. So, wendy, tell me what you think.
Speaker 1:Well, Molly, I think you did a really good job explaining self-preservation too, and I know that that was hard for you.
Speaker 2:I'm all good now. I'm good, I'm good to get it out.
Speaker 1:It's hard to it's hard to be honest about those things that just don't look so nice, Like they don't sound pretty at all.
Speaker 2:And we two, threes and fours are in the image tribe in the image center.
Speaker 2:And so that is at play a lot. I wanted to share one example, wendy, of this whole childlike thing or dependency, but independence. I I must've been like 23, 24 when my, my parents were finally like you have got to get a car Cause I kept borrowing their car and they, they were like. They were like it had never even crossed my radar that I could save money and buy my own car. It's just something as simple as that, like, oh, you mean, I could do that myself. So I don't know if that's helpful, but that's a pattern.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a slow start and pushes. Yeah, that's a really good example, and one that I've heard other self-preservation twos express too, like there's this that just getting a car can seem, can seem so big, so adult, yeah, so adult Clients on others to take care, but also wanting to be independent yeah, that, it's that push-pull, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Shall we move on to the social two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's do social two, Okay, which is named ambition, and these names that we're using. I'm just kind of the names that we're using like me first, privilege for the self-preservation, to ambition for the social too, it's it's really just kind of like a little sound bite that can help you remember, like, what are the key, um, key qualities of that subtype. So, um, it's not a, it's not a full on identifier like, but it's, it's a quality, and so we we use those names to just help remember what the subtype is. So, and it's, not all encompassing.
Speaker 2:remember what the subtype is. So, and it's not all encompassing, it's not all encompassing for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So social two, which we call ambition, is someone who really knows how to work a room. They're often leaders. They're those powerful personalities kind of during the ship. They're the ones who not only know the right people but they also do the important task and often find themselves in leadership roles and being admired for their accomplishments, which is important to them. They're friendly and soft on the outside, but they're, and they're often really likable Like others, really like them. They admire them. There's just this like wow, you are awesome is what they hear a lot from people.
Speaker 1:Now, the pride of the social too. It's not as hidden as it is with the self-preservation too. It's more like it's right out there for everyone to see. But it is really really hard for the type two the self or the social to to see pride in themselves because they see themselves as just being super supportive and helping the whole group. They really give a lot to others. Um, and this is a big blind spot for them. They have a blind spot to how to pride and they have a blind spot to even just seeing their own needs. It's like I'm helping everybody else. It's pride for not having needs. So they focused on others and take. Really, they take a lot of pride in cultivating an image of being influential, super competent and highly intelligent. There's also this deep sense of satisfaction they get from captivating an audience, really making an impact, but externally that they're going to deny that this is really satisfying to them, that they've captured their audience. They're going to be resistant to admitting that that feels good to them.
Speaker 1:Now the social two are big workaholics. They lean into work with a kind of just omnipotent vigor, and it's driven by a desire to stand out and to be above the rest. It's not about being at the top, it's about the influence and the advantage that that position offers them. They can, they can be someone in the background that's supporting the person at the top, but that gives them a lot of satisfaction and influence over that person, and so they often operate on this belief that being superior is a reward in and of itself. It's this need to be seen as superior and it manifests, as in competition and there's a big competitive streak, a bit of a like a thirst for glory, and sometimes they can have an indifferent attitude towards the emotions of others. It's like their entire being revolves around the need to be somebody. They're always playing that angle and it's really unconscious. So it's important to understand for all of these that we're talking about, like much of this is so unconscious and for the social too, being aware that they're always kind of angling and always planning their next move to get something in return, like to get something from someone, is really a blind spot for them. What they see is that they're just generously giving, but it's a strategic giving and again, this is just super unconscious. So we just need to remember that.
Speaker 1:But interestingly, the social two they also embody the role of the protector. They tend to present themselves as more mature and polished, especially when compared to the more childlike self-preservation two, like Molly just described, and kind of the wilder, more flexible sexual two. Outwardly they come off as warm, relational and generous, but privately they really do harbor warm, relational and generous, but privately they really do harbor a deep desire to be admired. So this type, this social two, can be mistaken for a type eight or a type three because of their hardworking nature and their significant accomplishments and desire to accomplish things and be recognized for that. But the difference is is that? Well, I won't go into the difference. We need to keep this moving, go on and on and on about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, it's a. It's a complex type, like all types are, and with many, many layers.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's all I have for social too. Thanks for thanks for that. And and when you were talking about the social too, I was struck by the, the social instinct, how this flavors it. But the social instinct, how this flavors it. But the social dominant instinct really has this desire to protect the herd, to gather, it's a herd mentality and it is active in action all the time. So this, where the self-preservation may be more, it's a little narrower in scope as far as focus, the social is out there. It's what sometimes it has is referred to as this God complex. I think that's just a really important distinction in how these general instincts influence each type so differently. Yes, so yeah, good, good, good point Awesome.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:Talk with us. The sexual two, or what's referred to as one-on-one two, is named aggressive seductive. Imagine someone who truly embodies the art of seduction, not just in a superficial sense but as a profound emotional and psychological strategy. They embody the role of the seducer of individuals, and this is driven by a deep need to be desired. They have more emotional ups and downs and can get angry when their special person doesn't give back. Pride, for the sexual too, is about being irresistible above any other person. Pride here, the passion of pride, hides behind being irreplaceable, so much so that the person that they have seduced will deeply, deeply miss them if they're not around. They compel others to desire them, fulfilling that prideful need. That's again operating, often unconsciously, that prideful need to be wanted and desired. It's interesting because their pride isn't as overt. It's more about being validated by the affection and the attraction they inspire in someone else. The sexual two is adept at making themselves highly attractive and is somewhat less ashamed than others might be about having needs. So they're okay, a little more okay with having needs.
Speaker 2:What really sets the sexual two apart is their strategy of seduction. It's almost like a survival tactic for them. They seduce as their way to solve their problems and to get their needs met without having to openly acknowledge those needs. This means creating a strong, intimate bond with someone who they believe will fulfill all their desires, simply because they find them irresistible. So it's this irresistible quality that is the connection. So how do they do this?
Speaker 2:Well, the sexual twos method can be to use the expression of emotions to gain loyalty or to spark a desire. They can be thought of as having a dangerous kind of beauty, almost like the archetype of a vampire, irresistible, and using that to allure. That allure to exert a sort of control. Self sexual twos want others to be captivated by them and use their charm and irresistible energy to make this happen. And use their charm and irresistible energy to make this happen. And energy is an interesting distinction between it's not just about the outside appearance, so it's not about someone who might look sexy. That's not what this is about. It's about an energy of attraction and seduction.
Speaker 2:Life for a sexual two is characterized by intense, deep love affairs and extraordinary connections. This sizzle and significant emotional upheaval if those relationships end can be devastating. They're like a force of nature, an emotional whirlwind that takes pride in being exceptional to their partners. They are always in pursuit of that intense one-on-one relationship. Sexual twos can often be mistaken for a sexual four or a sexual three, which we will explore in a little bit here, and that's because of their intense, dynamic approach to relationships and their fearless expression of their needs which, as you can see, is so different than the other two type twos. So what are your thoughts, wendy?
Speaker 1:Wow, just again, molly, such a great description. And it's interesting to me how, when we look at, when we look at all of the sexual subtypes, of all of the nine types, there is a layer of emotionality, there's a layer of anger, there's a layer of competition, and that is expressed in this sexual to description. Right, it's this kind of like I'm going to, I'm going to pull you in, I'm going to. It's an allure, it's seduction, and you can see it Like. You see it in their eyes and they're very. It's like. You just kind of like get pulled in by them and you want to come closer. And it's happening without any effort, again, like they're not doing it on purpose, it's instinctual.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you have to remember that this is about instincts, which is which is before cognition, before emotion, like instinct is at the base level, like we come out of the womb with instinct before we even know we need them, right, right. And so, keeping keeping that in mind, as we go, yeah, as we go through all of this, and so you're going to hear self as we go through you're, and so you're going to hear self as we go through, you're going to hear the self-preservation, about security, about needing to be safe in all of them. In social, you're going to hear about how they interact with the larger collective, the larger group, and how that's important to them, because that's how they feel safe. With the sexual, you're going to hear about this kind of emotional expression and anger and competition, because that's how they feel safe.
Speaker 2:It's all about survival, survival, and just to piggyback on what you're saying. So the self-preservation stance or energy is a little bit more pulled back. The social is a little bit more almost like good posture I envision it like upright and alert. And then the sexual one-to-one is more forward, moving, more looking with eyes.
Speaker 1:Yes, very, very good, yeah, okay yes, all right, let's get move into threes, all right. So the self-preservation three is named security and you're going to see that, as I, as I explain this to you, they are also the counter type I. They're characterized by what you might call like vanity for having no vanity. So vanity is the passion of type three and the self-preservation three is like denies vanity, and they so. They have vanity for having no vanity. It's like this really fascinating paradox.
Speaker 1:But three, this type of three, they really desire to be seen as attractive and successful. They go out of their way to ensure that nobody, that nobody, knows that they want to be seen as successful. They're more focused on like. They want to be seen as good. I want to be seen as good, I want to be seen as good, not successful. So they're not. They don't flaunt their achievements or qualities as much as the other, especially the social three. Being vain is not good. And the self-preservation three wants to be seen as good. So they appear more modest and they don't want to be seen as self-promoting, because they want to be seen in a really positive light.
Speaker 1:The self-preservation three they strive to embody just like the perfect model of virtue. Think of the ideal parent, worker, spouse they're determined to fit these molds. It's often driven by a belief that true virtue means having no vanity at all. So I have to be the best spouse, I have to be the best parent, I have to be the best worker. I have to in order to feel good, to feel safe. But I don't want you to know that that's important to me. That would be something that the self-preservation three might express. So, you know, they kind of aim for perfection in a way that kind of excludes an overt display of self-pride. They're typically uncomfortable driving a nice car or having nice clothes, even though on the inside they might want those things. They often struggle to distinguish between their image-driven motives and their genuine feelings and convictions, and this can lead to a sort of self-deception about why they do what they do. This is, it's a very again, it's very unconscious, and I think we're going to say that a lot as we go on, just as a reminder. So we're not, you know, we're being kind to ourselves. We're looking at this with a whole lot of compassion, not only for ourselves but for the people in our lives that we love. That are these subtypes. Ok, back to the self-preservation.
Speaker 1:A key theme for this subtype is security, particularly the kind that comes from autonomy and self-reliance. This three feels a heavy responsibility for everything in their life and this often stems from a lack of protection during childhood, which taught them to be doers. They're highly efficient and highly self-sufficient and with a significant workaholic streak, so, whether it's for financial security or emotional approval, like they are working hard, so no matter how successful they are or how much money they have in the bank, it's very common for them to feel like they have to keep working really hard. Externally they might appear calm and composed, but underneath that, striving for working really hard and striving for approval is brings about a ton of anxiety. They feel a responsibility to keep everything going and this can lead them to a panic at the thought of needing help or of losing their own autonomy or of losing their own autonomy. But the thing is they rarely show this stress to others, even in their closest, most intimate relationships. It can be very hard for them to show that they're having anxiety or that things are getting too much because of this compulsion just to work, work, work, work, work. So this can make their relationships challenging and while they're working hard to create and maintain good connections, because that's a good and right thing to do.
Speaker 1:Their relationships can sometimes remain superficial due to their intense focus on self-sufficiency and their compulsion to work. It's like you can't. It's almost like to have the self-preservation here. Three here like you can't fully have both. There has to be a balance. Like you can't have deep, intimate relationships if you're only focused on work, and so it's just something to consider. So the self-preservation three they can look quite a bit like a one or a type six. Like the one, they have a strong desire to appear perfect, but the perfection is more judged by like what the social standard of perfection might be, whereas with the one it's an inner standard of like what it what perfection is to the individual. It's an inner standard of like what it what perfection is to the individual. And like sixes, they kind of share that general concern for security and exhibit those patterns of fear and anxiety which makes them look some look like sixes sometimes. Okay, molly, that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so good and I want to encourage you, our friends, for spaciousness as you're listening, that there is time and space, as you're gathering this information about the subtypes, to to be curious about yourself and about your people. So there's not a rush. I'm thinking. Why this came to me to share, wendy, is because I'm thinking about working with people as they're trying to land in their type and my mind is always racing and going and it's, it's, it's, there's just a, there's, there's a flexibility and a free flow, rather than this need to figure it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, good point, thanks, all right.
Speaker 2:Social three Molly, continuing social three. So the social three is named prestige and this type is all about visibility and about influence. You could say the social three is the quintessential three Master chameleon, vain and absolutely thriving in the spotlight. They are more aggressive and competitive and assertive and more focused on winning and being seen as the winner. So this competitive streak, social threes, like being on stage and live for the applause of the crowd. They want and crave that positive feedback and interaction. The social three embraces vanity and they act out their vanity through a burning desire to shine, not just locally but before the whole world. They want to be seen in the nice car and really appreciate nice clothes and want to be known as very successful. The name prestige perfectly captures their drive. It's all about gaining admiration from not just one but from everyone, and about the applause, and they're not shy about stepping out front to relish in it, to soak it up. The social three possesses a brilliant knack for conversation and for climbing the social ladder. They're strategic in their interactions, framing their words to maximize benefit, whether that's making the right impression, achieving their desires or reaching their goals.
Speaker 2:Social threes talent for image making is unmatched, making them excellent at selling and at marketing themselves or any product they might represent. It's almost as if they have no apparent faults, at least on the surface. Social threes are very skilled at crafting the right image and it is hard to spot their flaws. They thrive on competition and have a distinctly assertive and aggressive streak, often driven by a corporate mentality and this relentless pursuit of doing things the best way possible, especially when it comes to outward appearances.
Speaker 2:Social threes also struggle with anxiety. But their anxiety, different than the self-preservation three, is about being overexposed or appearing vulnerable. They might keep people at a distance to maintain their image of success because deep inside they fear that others might see through their facade. Outwardly they have so much confidence. So when criticism or if failure comes their way, it can hit really hard. They are so sensitive but they don't show it. They must maintain that image. That composed exterior Social threes can look a lot like social twos or even sexual eights, given their focus on social success and leadership and strategic relationships. But make no mistake, the social three is in a league of their own when it comes to mastering the art of that social prestige or esteem. So that's a little summary of the social three.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a great, a great summary, molly. And I have a. I have a friend who that her husband is a social three and she'll just say, like he's so good at just working the room, like so just polished. There's just this polished way that they appear um, very, very engaging, very good at getting others kind of to um do what they want them to do, a little bit like a two would write again. So this is all heart type. We're talking about the heart types today and so there's similarities in them and it's, it's this relating. All of the heart types want to relate and they're wanting to connect. The energy is coming from the heart space to the other person in front of them, or the people in front of them. That's just saying connect, connect, connect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes. It makes me think of I, I. I wonder if for social threes, that relationship with self deceit is the most at play.
Speaker 1:Hmm, yeah, you know what it probably it might be. Um, I, I think that you're right on that. Um, you know a lot of and a lot of um, actors and actresses are social three like they really like being in that limelight. Of course, not all of them, right, that's a stereotype, but you know it can be interesting to see that being comfortable being on stage, being noticed and being recognized for being noticed.
Speaker 2:Right, yes, ok Great.
Speaker 1:Thanks.
Speaker 1:All right, so the sexual three is an interesting subtype. All right, so the sexual three is an interesting subtype. I don't personally know any sexual threes, and so I'm always intrigued by this subtype, and so maybe you can give me some of your insights on this too, molly. Okay, all right. So the sexual three is named masculinity, femininity, and their drive is all about appeal and beauty. They're competitive, but it's way more subtle, and it's often directed towards supporting others rather than highlighting their own achievements. So the sexual three might come across as sweet and shy, and they can find it a little challenging to talk about themselves, which is not like the social three. Right, you see that distinction there, and so, but what they do is they shift focus onto others whom they want to support, so it's like their accomplishment is supporting others, which I find so fascinating. Again, I'm just really intrigued by this type. So this can make them come off like twos as their pleasers, and they want to dedicate themselves to making someone else shine. So they pour their energy into promoting others, and while they're ambitious and hardworking, their efforts are aimed at enhancing the image and the success of those around them.
Speaker 1:So in this subtype, vanity isn't outright denied or fully embraced. It kind of exists in this middle ground. They aren't as focused on their own status or achievements. For them, being attractive and being supportive is enough. That's the achievement. They don't feel the need to achieve traditional success to be loved. Rather, it's that they seek approval from others by pleasing them, and so they adopt a psychological style to please others and to gain the affirmation and approval they shapeshift, and their shapeshifting can be so intense that they completely lose touch with themselves. It's like the whole of who they are gets shifted into whomever they feel the important other in their life will admire or love. One of their deepest fears is separation and abandonment, which shapes a lot of the interactions and the roles that they choose to take on.
Speaker 1:Success for the sexual three looks really unconventional, and their drive to succeed stems from a deep. Dogs barking, barking. Hi Oliver, good boy, good boy, ok. Back to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, good boy, yeah, right, okay. Back to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no worries, great, all right, where was I? Oh, yeah, this unconventional right. Their unconventional drive to succeed stems from a deep thirst for love, and that can lead them into fantasies about finding the perfect partner. They have like a fairy tale mentality when it comes to finding that ideal relationship with someone who really sees and recognizes them and loves them. So, despite their attractiveness and outward focus on others, sexual threes can often struggle with low self-esteem and they can experience feelings of emptiness and disconnection along with a really, really profound underlying sadness. This can make them look a little similar to twos, but they also have this really enthusiastic, sweet, positive exterior about being encouraging and supporting others and being happy that they can look a little seven-ish too. So those are the kind of the lookalike types for the sexual three.
Speaker 2:So it's making me think about when my kids were little Wendy, and I noticed this difference between my kids, who they they kind of I sometimes refer to them as little ragamuffins, because I let them kind of wear whatever they want and and I was always struck by the kids who had perfect pigtails and matching outfits and everything was so well put together. Um, and it makes me curious, I don't know for sure, but that um, sexual three energy, or know, having that attention to your child, yeah, and anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cool, all right.
Speaker 2:All right, okay. So next we're going to the next type, and that is type four. That is, our beloved Wendy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, okay. So, as we move into type four, I just want to take a little bit of time to talk about four as a whole. So, as we talk about the subtypes of four, they're really different from one another, and this is a perfect example of why understanding the subtypes is so important, and it highlights what I said in the beginning about explaining why two people of the same type can look really different. So, to help you out, you can think about it this way the self-preservation four is the happy four, the social four is the happy four, the social four is the sad four and the sexual four is the mad four. So those are three things that you're going to hear as we go through talking about the four here.
Speaker 2:Wendy, can I interject us here? Um, there are a couple, maybe two or three types in the Enneagram that the subtypes make them look extremely different. Fours, sixes, um, the subtype flavors them so differently, and so thank you for naming that the happy, sad, angry, mad, sad, mad.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's just, it's kind of an easy way to remember the uh, some of the nuance differences. Okay, all right. So, um, self-preservation force name is tenacity and it's the counter type of type force and it's the counter type of type fours. So, all of the sub, all of the heart types, their subtype of self-preservation is the counter type, which I find interesting, and it's the only place in the system where that happens. Okay, well, the self-preservation four type experience is envy. Not in the same way as the other two subtypes of four do this self-preservation four. They tend to deny their envy and quietly endure the longing and the sadness. So they turn their feelings of envy and lack into a motivator to work hard to attain what they feel like is missing. So envy here isn't, it's not a passive feeling, it's transformed into action and into working hard.
Speaker 1:The other type four subtypes the social and the sexual. They might express their emotions more dramatically, but the self-preservation four is more. They internalize their feelings more and they kind of embody this essence of being like long suffering. They've learned to feel pain, both physical and emotional pain, without showing it. They're not the type to openly share their pain freely with others. The self-preservation four is stoically strong, bearing their emotional burdens privately and with remarkable resilience. And they really do demand a lot from themselves. I should just be saying me, I demand a lot from myself, incredibly high internal standards myself, incredibly high internal standards. Yes, it's tiring, it's tiring anyways.
Speaker 1:The self-preservation, the tenet, and that is the tenet, right, um, the self-preservation, for they have this profound need to endure and this often leads them to putting themselves in really challenging situations. It's like a test of their own strength and they use that to prove to themselves that they're not good enough. Like that's a really curious piece of this, like I'm going to do something really hard, that way I can prove I'm not good enough. It's really ridiculous, but it's true. So this kind of cycle leads them to devaluing themselves, which helps them develop a really high tolerance for frustration. It's like they make a virtue out of resistance, resistance to, to everything. It's a very, very masochistic, and masochism is a big blind spot for the self-preservation. For again, it's that high tolerance for pain, because they've gotten used to holding it in and toughening it out. It's like this stoic bearing down. Like I will not give into expressing any fame. It's bizarre. Anyways, okay. So, despite the stoic exterior, the self-preservation force. They have a deeply empathetic and nurturing side. They often stand up for others, particularly like needy, those that are needy or victims of injustice. They kind of have that humanitarian spirit, Like they don't, they're really for the underdog, they don't want people to feel bad about what's happening to them and so they kind of can charge on in that way, can charge on in that way.
Speaker 1:So we've talked about like the four, all of the three four subtypes before I started this, and an example of that is how the four subtypes, how the type four subtypes, handle frustration differently. The social four suffers visibly, that's the sad four for suffers visibly, that's the sad for. The sexual for might project their suffering onto others, that's the mad for. But the self-preservation for, which is the happy for, takes on the opposite approach, showing an extraordinary capacity to bear frustration quietly, with a smile and ease, hoping that this endurance will earn them love. See how easy I am, I'm not making things hard for you. It's like this little child self-preservation for is looking at the parent and saying see how I'm not complaining, do you love me? Now? It's so sad, makes me tear up even just saying it, because it's such a common thing for the self-preservation form Like I'm not going to make things hard for you, will you love me now? So the happy four can look like a type seven because they present a little lighter, happier demeanor as a way to escape their inner pain, but it's also to protect others from their sadness. Again, it's sneaky in that way and they can also resemble a type one because of the incredibly high standards and the discipline to work hard and they also have a pretty loud inner critic. But I've said before on previous podcasts that for the self-preservation four and for the four in general, the critic sounds more like a condemner, so I like to call it the inner condemner, not the inner critic. Okay, so that's, that's what I've got for self-preservation for.
Speaker 1:And, um, I'll just share, like, even just how this, even how this came up for me this morning, molly. So today my youngest son, aaron, sworn into the Navy and left for bootcamp, which hit me in ways I was unexpected. I was not expecting. He's our youngest, all the other kids have gone and done their things right, so it's, all the other kids have gone and done their things Right, so it's, it's different in that way, but I was feeling so sad and I was just having all of this overwhelming emotion of of he's going out and he's going to be now settling into adulthood in a way that he hasn't before and making that, you know, incredibly brave commitment to serve and to and to risk his own life Like makes me emotional right now.
Speaker 1:But I, when I went to even just talk with you, molly, this morning, before we got started, I just was like it was so hard for me to just cry in front of you and you're one of my very best friends, one of the people I'm safest with in my life, and so that's just um, and you asked me. You asked me what it was about. It's just such a learned behavior what it was about. It's just such a learned behavior. It's that very early learned behavior of be strong. Don't show anybody your emotions, like nobody wants to hear about how sad you are, so you just hold it in and you smile, and so that other people feel more comfortable.
Speaker 2:That's a very common experience for the self-preservation floor and I would like to say I was so grateful to receive what you were feeling, these emotions about your son Aaron, and to also add Wendy. He will be so much in my heart and prayers and our community here, I know it's holding you and holding him. Um, and there's this um growth that happens so uncomfortably by being vulnerable and sharing.
Speaker 1:So, um so, thank you. Yeah, and all of and all of inner work requires risk, or requires risk to break out of our habitual way of being, because we don't know what will happen on the other end If I do something different, what might happen? And the only way to know that is to try is to take that risk and and to to have those experiences that then reinforce that positive response from others, like over and over and over. The more I am vulnerable with sharing my deep emotions, I'm I'm almost always met with kindness and love and compassion. Yeah, so this old story about no one wants to hear about how sad you are isn't true.
Speaker 2:And so it's time for me to continue to let that go and to allow others to take some of that emotional burden for me that they this waking up and it's healing work there, so real compassion around how hard this is. And then when we do this risk, when we take these risks of trying a different way, like for you, for sharing your emotions, it's uncomfortable, uncomfortable to say the least. And what happens? What you're talking about, which I value so much, is your experience, my experience. When I try something different, I am gathering new evidence in my evidence basket. I can put that in my evidence basket and say, but wait, this also, this also, and that's where we develop our new neural pathways, our new, that we can do so. Anyway, it's these individual, really deep experiences and the one that you had today, but it's universal. We're all able to try new things. And so there you are, leading us by example and I love you.
Speaker 1:I love you too, molly, and I haven't heard you use that term before the um evidence basket. I really liked that. Yeah, I really liked that a lot, okay, all right. All right, molly, talk with us about social four, the social four.
Speaker 2:Okay, the social four is named shame and is known for their heightened emotional sensitivity. They feel things very deeply and tend to suffer more intensely than most. This type of four often expresses their envy through a pattern of lamentation, frequently adopting the role of victim, social fours focus on inferiority. In that compare and contrast, they usually end up on the bottom, inferior, and their attachment to suffering is again that survival strategy. As a way to get support from others, they compare themselves to others the most and again end up inferior, and they contend to have a neurotic need to prove themselves to be inferior, that confirmation bias. However, they're often highly competent people who insist that they are not competent and this makes it hard for them to go into action and perpetuates the cycle of comparing and inferiority, compare and despair. So suffering isn't just a state of being, it becomes part of their identity, something that distinguishes them and, paradoxically, can draw others to them. There is a seductive quality to their suffering, as if their pain might invoke sympathy or aid from those around them. Yet while they're comfortable in their suffering, they often rationalize it rather than actively seeking to do something about it.
Speaker 2:Social fours can feel like the worst person, which is a sneaky, sneaky place for that passion of envy to hide. For the social four. Envy creates the complaining and the sad stories. It's like the social four is saying I am telling you about my suffering and my sad story because you are not suffering and I wish I could be like you, which is envy. So they're saying don't you see how inferior I am? See how inferior I am? All of this makes them prone to self-abasement, self-recrimination and self-sabotage, engaging in behaviors that weaken themselves. Their envy manifests in constant comparisons with others, the outcome being they're never good enough and always the lowest of the low, which is not true. Not true, it is the pattern and the behavior.
Speaker 2:So to others the extreme inferiority of the social force mindset can be startling, because others typically see them as highly competent On the inside. They feel timid and feel constrained from expressing their desires openly. This is often coupled with shame about their sexuality and about their anger. So rather than expressing desire and anger directly, it's often converted into tears and a further sense of victimization and inferiority. So for the social fours, they can look a lot like they're lookalike types of a six or a type two. So, and I'm, that would be the social six. Yeah, that would be the social six, yeah. So what are your thoughts on that, Wendy?
Speaker 1:It's. This is it's so interesting and I hope that people saw the stark difference between, or are hearing the stark difference between, the self-preservation four and the social four. And um, I have, I have a good social forefront and I have a good sexual forefront, and when you put the three of us together, like we look so different from one another, but yet when we're talking this, the internal experience is so similar. Envy is there? Not feeling good enough, is there? There's something wrong with me? This you know? Irredeemable. I'm irredeemable, like it's all there. It's that core, fear, that core. What core? What is at the core? Right, it's the motivation.
Speaker 1:So this, this shows like the motivation is there and the way it gets expressed in behavior is different yes, thank you for saying that, and so it's just like use that example a lot of like um, the three of us together are just, when you line us up, we, we just look. We could look like we could be different types, but we're not, we're all fours because of that motivation.
Speaker 2:That's way underneath. Yes, we're here. The core is twofold.
Speaker 1:Yep, the core type structure is the same and this is this is the cool thing about subtypes. You know we've talked about how it gets mixed up, right? I love the way b and aranio say it is like the alchemy, it's alchemical, right. Sort of this alchemical mix of type structure mixed with dominant instinct, flavors, how it gets expressed and how it's lived out okay, we're bringing it home now, home with this sexual four, um.
Speaker 1:So you're not going to be surprised by this, maybe you are, but the sexual four is named competition. They're very competitive. They're very competitive people, um, and they're known for kind of their fiery emotional landscape. Like I heard someone one time say, like a sexual four could scare an eight, and if you know anything about eights, like they're, just like this big energy and energy, you know big energy. But sexual fours, they, they have, they have energy, they have that big energy too and they have that anger. But anyway. So for the sexual four, um, they experienced their envy not just as a feeling, but it's a catalyst for their competition. They're not just envious, they're competitively so. And this manifest and how they express anger, so it's envious anger and it's assertive and it can be really outspoken. Remember I said, they're the mad four, the sexual force.
Speaker 1:Anger isn't just an emotion, it's a defense against deeper, more painful feelings. So their sadness gets turned into anger as a way of denying sadness, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. So it's this ability to transform pain into anger and so that they no longer experience it as pain but as fiery reactive energy. And this to others looks like anger, fiery reactive energy, and this to others looks like anger. The transformation can be seen as kind of like a refusal to passively suffer. They insist that their needs be validated and met and sometimes they might even want to hurt or punish others as a way to diminish their own pain. So by externalizing their pain they can alleviate their inner feelings of inferiority. So they lean into exaggerating a sense of superiority when they feel hurt or insulted, or a sense of shame and sadness. But again sadness and shame gets transmuted into anger and arrogance. It's like internally they're saying you're not seeing me, so I have to put you down to elevate myself. It's an unconscious avoidance of shame or deficiency.
Speaker 1:Authenticity is incredibly important to the sexual four. So unlike people who strive to present a really polished image to the world, they are less concerned with niceness and managing perceptions. They're not always concerned with appearing nice. They're often perceived as arrogant, which is a posture they adopt to compensate for their deep feelings of inferiority, shame and sadness. I hope you're kind of catching on to the theme here with this. So when it comes to relationships, sexual fours are all about intensity. They want intense relationships and intense connections. They can also have kind of an elitist aura and be really demanding.
Speaker 1:They'll boldly like come right out and say give it to me or they're going to strive to become irresistibly special and superior to attract the love that they crave.
Speaker 1:So they do both of those things. But this can kind of set off a cycle of rejection and anger, because when you're that demanding of other people, they are going to pull away, and then that makes the sexual four feel rejected, and then they're angry and then that pushes people away, and so there's this cycle of rejection and anger that they can continuously live in because they underneath again, underneath all of this is envy, sadness and shame, but it gets projected out as anger and competition, as anger and competition. They really, really have a big fear of being abandoned and rejected, and so, again, all of that leads them to act out in this way. So, in terms of other Enneagram types, the sexual four maybe not surprising to you looks a lot like a sexual eight or a sexual one because of their intense they're like intensely assertive, um, and sometimes the really confrontational. So that is well, that's it. I guess we got to our last one of the heart types.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wendy, you know it's so striking to me. Listening to all of this is just real tenderness and compassion. I know I started out talking about my own personal embarrassment, which is totally fine, that is okay. And what has happened, as we've shared this, is just this real compassion for everyone. And that's what this system of the Enneagram does, that's what this framework does, because underneath all of us is this motivation that is tied to this real need of being human. And when we understand that that the way that people present, whether it is in whatever our passion is, whatever our ways, are any of the numbers, it's, it's all connected to what's way down deep underneath which for me really um fosters this ability to kind of loosen up and um channel compassion yeah, yeah, because it, because it's so true, there's a reason that people are the way they are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a reason. There's a reason, there's a reason why people are the way that they are.
Speaker 2:They're not just trying to be fill in the blank Right In whatever situation you're in With your family, family at work, wherever in relationships.
Speaker 1:So so we really want to encourage everyone to really seek understanding, like ask really curious questions of the people around you and and be open to hearing what they have to say and have compassion for their answers and have compassion for yourself, because someone is. You might be looking at someone going like I can't believe they're that way or why would they do something like that? I can assure you, someone is also looking at you that way. I wonder why. I wonder why you know, I wonder why Wendy is that way and they're not asking it in a good way. We are, we all have someone we annoy.
Speaker 1:We all have someone that that doesn't doesn't jive with us, and that's okay, it's okay, it's totally okay. But what we can do is that we can be kinder to one another, we can keep the perspective of. There is a reason why this person is the way they are and part of that is their Enneagram structure type structure. But it's also maybe their trauma, it's also maybe their upbringing, it's also many, many other things that contribute to what makes up a person and how they present themselves in the world. So again, we just say let's just be compassionate, kind, curious, about yourself first and about others.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and take your time and take your time we can slow down and take our time. Yes, we are in it because we are in it together. Absolutely, this has been so invigorating, so thank you for letting me be a part of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I love the podcast that we've been doing together. Molly and you know this is the second one in this three-part series, so we have one more to go where we'll do the subtypes of types five, six and seven, the head center, and so we just invite all of you that are listening back for that when it comes out. But again, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to reach out to us. My website's wendybusbycoachingcom. Molly's website is mollykkcoachingcom. You can find us on Instagram, you can. All these links are in the show notes, of course, but we love you all. We appreciate y'all so much. Yes.
Speaker 2:And we are, our hearts are with you all, being the heart types we are.
Speaker 1:I know right. Okay, bye all, bye everybody.