Your Enneagram Friend

Embracing Change: Midlife and the Enneagram Journey

• Wendy Busby • Season 1 • Episode 11

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Ever wondered if a midlife transition could be more of a rebirth than a crisis? Join me, Wendy Busby, as I chat with Nevada Lane (Type SP 3) on Your Enneagram Friend Podcast. Nevada talks about the often misunderstood midlife phase, not as a crisis but as a crucial stage for reevaluating life's priorities and personal identity. This episode is brimming with insights that could illuminate your path through midlife's transformative waters.

Nevada and I discuss how being surrounded by those who nurture your growth—those who "blow on the embers of who we are becoming"—is vital. We also explore how the Enneagram serves as a robust guide during these transformative times, providing clarity and a roadmap of one's personality traits and virtues. By aligning personal growth with these virtues, we encourage listeners to find their authentic path.

 Tune in for an engaging dialogue that challenges conventional notions of midlife and empowers you to embrace your evolving self.

You can connect with Nevada Lane at www.lanechangeconsulting.com and follower her on Instagram @lanechangeconsult 

Are you curious about what your Enneagram Type is?
Click here to buy the online Enneagram Test https://wendybusbycoaching.com/enneagram-type-test

For more Enneagram insights follow Wendy on Instagram @your_enneagram_friend
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Are you ready to begin your coaching journey?
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Speaker 2:

stuff centered here.

Speaker 1:

Okay, all right, a little deep breath. Here we go in three, two, one. Hello and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend Podcast, where you are invited into an engaging and thought-provoking conversation about the Enneagram. Where you are invited into an engaging and thought-provoking conversation about the Enneagram, I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to have a more fulfilling relationship with yourself and with the important people in your life. Today, I'm joined by my friend, nevada Lane. Nevada and I met a couple of years ago in the CP Enneagram Academy Professional Certification Program and we ended up working on some Enneagram case studies together, which was super fun and very educational, I have to say, and you're just going to love getting to know Nevada. She's so awesome. So welcome, nevada.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so nice to be here. Yeah, I'm so glad that you agreed to be on, and I'm excited for the conversation that we're having today. I think that the topic that we're going to discuss is really just interesting, maybe because we're both kind of in that stage of learning, but I'm not going to give it away just yet. So let's just start by you telling us a little bit about who you are, what you do and where you're from.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure, so I'm Nevada. I am not from Nevada, I'm from San Francisco and I'm a facilitator and leadership coach for women in midlife and I have been a corporate facilitator for about 20 years and then I'm also an adjunct professor at a university here teaching visual thinking and visual facilitation to grad students and do a lot of teaching and training in the kind of graphic facilitation space. And I have two grown-ish kids and live with my husband and we've been together about 25 years and, yeah, love the Enneagram and it weave it. I weave it into all the work I do whenever I can yes, that is one of the awesome things about it.

Speaker 1:

It's like almost everything. Yeah, I love seeing all the graphic work that you do. It's just so interesting and love to talk more about that at another time, I think with you. But to stay on topic, when did you first learn about the Enneagram and how did you discover what your type was? Well, and tell us what your type is too, oh sure.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I'm a self preservation three and, like most threes, I kind of knew my type right away. Uh, I actually read a book about the Enneagram when I was 13. It was laying by the pool at this place I went in the summer. It was Helen Palmer's book, something like so 1988, something like that. It was there. I read through the types. I wanted to be a seven. I knew I was a three and I put the book down and then never thought about the Enneagram again until 2018. Wow, so then someone introduced me to the Enneagram who was really passionate about it. Another CP Enneagram person, um, did an assessment and I just felt like everything fell into place about me really understanding some of the stuff I'd already been working on as part of my own midlife transition and thought, oh my gosh, this would have been so helpful to have at the beginning of the journey.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, and I've been a sort of a passionate student since then was there one thing in particular that kind of really just jumped out at you?

Speaker 2:

yes, I'm thinking yes, it was actually about like, like I always had this sense of why, like that I was that I would get angry at like in business meetings or in kind of corporate settings, and then I'd have to kind of hide my anger. And what I realized with that first debrief was it's not actually anger, it's impatience. It's impatience and frustration that things are moving slowly, because, as a three, I want to run forward so fast and move to action right away and have a clear sense of where the goal is and how I want to get there and that, um, that people are like slowing me down the efficiency like let's just be efficient here, people, and let's get there faster, we'll do more Of course I can see how small the aperture is to think that way, but that had been so present for all of my early adulthood.

Speaker 1:

So that was such a beautiful framing that helped me unlock a lot of things. Yeah, and that's often so forward in the experience of threes, right Beyond even just knowing anything about the Enneagram, like there are people who are of that type. They're aware like, yeah, no, I'm very goal-driven, very focused on accomplishing goals, and efficiency is really important to that process, and so, yeah, that's that's interesting. Thanks for sharing that. Okay, so let's get into our topic topic. So one of the reasons why I wanted to have Nevada on the podcast is to share about some of the amazing work that she's been doing around the Enneagram and midlife transition. So, nevada, can you talk about what the midlife transition is and what it isn't, to get our conversation going?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sure. So anyone knows who's been through kind of a big midlife transition knows the wild ride that it is. But it's like often we start at this feeling of somewhere between our late 30s and, you know, fifth early 50s it can happen any of that time there's a sense of kind of malaise, boredom, stuckness, frustration, sometimes anger, and it's like what is happening and what it actually often is is a wake up call to look at really how we're living our life and who am I now and how do I want to be living. And it's a common psychological development transition that you know lasts somewhere between two and four years, based on what the research says. And you know it's a time of real questioning about how we live our lives and it used to be called the midlife crisis. That term was coined in 1965 by Canadian psychoanalysts. You know, we know now it's not a crisis. It's really an opportunity and a chance to evolve and develop into kind of the second half of life, if you will, if you will.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes people refer to it as the shift from kind of role to soul, or ego, to soul or ambition, to purpose.

Speaker 2:

But there's definitely the sense of moving from an externally oriented life to one that is more internally oriented, where you're thinking more about what's meaningful, what's more purposeful to you, and you're stepping away from often kind of the, the mask or the persona that we've built up in that first half of life, that we've all had to do in order to be successful, in whatever way we deem that.

Speaker 2:

So I have a lot of compassion for my younger self and also for anyone going through this transition, which which is a big one, right, and there tends to be three stages of the transition. There's a separation phase where we're kind of like having this awkward separation between kind of who we were. And then there's this middle phase, which is the liminal or the kind of messy middle, the unknown, where it feels like topsy-turvy, we don't know what's up, what's down, how this is all going to pan out, and then, luckily, at some point there's this period of integration or incorporation, can feel kind of like a rebirth, or then you're finding kind of steady ground again and kind of a new way of being and living the new way of being and living.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, at the beginning of that of this stage that you're talking about, does something typically happen in someone's life that sort of triggers that, or is it that it just naturally happens? And if someone has, you know, a major event that kind of can trigger that, are they more apt to lean into it as opposed to like avoiding it and just continuing on with how they have been, without doing it? Or is it just it just happens for everyone and what do you think about that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, super interesting question.

Speaker 2:

So I think there's two things we can think about One is like it is a psychological development process. That is pretty natural. So for most of us we're going to kind of feel that call at some point in our midlife, right so anytime between you know, 38 and 60, really and I sometimes joke it's like sometimes you hear the knock and you don't listen, and then you hear the knock louder and you don't listen, and then maybe you're going to get a big old knock and it's going to feel more like a life quake that forces you to do a little waking up.

Speaker 1:

Ah, I see that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2:

So and I'm not saying you know, okay, if you don't pay attention, something bad's going to happen. But for some people I think, yeah, there's an external change agent that kind of forces that introspection. And then for some people there's nothing actually changing in the external environment and you still feel the urge to change, which can actually be kind of confusing, right, you're like everything is actually good and I'm not feeling like the same.

Speaker 1:

So both I think both are true, okay, yeah, thanks for answering that question so interesting, okay. So let's layer in some conversation about the Enneagram. So, as you've explored this topic, what have you learned about how each type might approach this midlife transition?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I might take a step back quickly and just sort of say there's probably things that all types can benefit from in the midlife period. Right, I mean one is you know, everyone needs something like I think everyone can benefit from understanding that it's a three-phased process and that there is to like normalize this liminal period as being really confusing and hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Like there's something just called it messy right, Because it feels very messy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, totally, and know like for a self-preservation three right, the idea that there's no, I don't know what the goal is here, because I don't really know what the end state looks like. It's like really disorienting not to have a goal suddenly right or be able to figure it out. Or I'm working with an eight right now who's like, but I can't figure this out.

Speaker 1:

Like, well, there's nothing to figure out yet you're in the liminal it needs to. There's something that's going to emerge for you. Yeah, and for those action-oriented types like I can see how that would be a struggle where it's like I can't slow down, like I have to be working towards something and then, so that discomfort could be really coming up in that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So there's that part of like normalizing that it's, you know it's hard and it's messy. And then there's, you know, in that in that period of transition and liminal space, we all need some kind of community right, and so people that are kind of like-minded, that are on the path that can have this. This metaphor I sometimes use is like we need people around us that can blow on the embers of the people we are becoming.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that. Say that again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we need people that blow on the embers of who we are becoming right. Because if we're kind of, if we're in this transition and the folks around us are long even our long-term friends who kind of aren't on that path, we can end up not feeling seen, and so it becomes extra frustrating and confusing when there's like there's something in me that wants to emerge. I need somebody out there that can help me see that and mirror that change map with me and with me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and join you on the journey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and join you on the journey. Yeah, exploring life in this new way, like what are the possible? Like it's the, the uh, the plane of possibility. Right, I love the way Dr Dan Siegel puts it. It's the plane of possibility. And getting less rigid in the way that we are and leaning into some flexibility and openness to how life is unfolding. I love that.

Speaker 2:

So much that's so beautiful. I mean, for I'm thinking about, there's a, there's a book that this man, Ben Katt, wrote which is quite beautiful about his own midlife transition. I'm pretty sure he was a three, but you know, you know whether that community is like minded folks on the path and then also coach, therapist, virtual advisor, mentor. It's so important in that time to help create a little bit of you know, to create some guidance.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's like who do you have in your toolbox?

Speaker 2:

Mm, hmm.

Speaker 1:

You in your life.

Speaker 2:

Mm, hmm.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, very valid point.

Speaker 2:

Um, I mean, and then, of course, any kind of contemplative practice, whether that's grounding practices, whether that's meditation, whether it's being in nature, any of these things that are going to help us kind of slow down and connect to ourselves, is so important for all the types, um, that, for myself, I started, I started having dreams of being in trees and I, you know, I live in the middle of san francisco and for me it was like it was like my sole calling to be in nature and be alone in nature, like this call to retreat and be by myself away from the noise and the busy and the people and yeah, yeah, and were you?

Speaker 1:

and when you're able to do that, do you find it very life-giving?

Speaker 2:

I do and you know, for three is an assertive type. It was like go, go, go, go, go um. And now it's like, oh my gosh, I'm longing for just the idea of being in a cabin in the woods by myself. It's going to be like so fantastic, you know um, yeah, yeah okay, well, let's go ahead and just start with um.

Speaker 1:

Let's start at type. Do you want to start at type eight or type one? Where do you want to start?

Speaker 2:

uh, let's start at one. I don't know I'm feeling one right now. I just had a call for one, yeah great, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So let's start with type one, and how, um how might a type one approach this transition and what could they do for themselves to help through, to get what they need from from it?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I mean and again for all types the way I think about it is like there's no checklist here of how to get through the midlife transition, because it's, by definition, liminal and messy. It's like the caterpillar going into the cocoon where you turn into goo. So imagine telling the caterpillar in the goo like okay, here's your five-step process for getting out of the goo you know it doesn't exist.

Speaker 2:

but what can help us, I think, in terms of the Enneagram is a couple things is one is like a map of the territory, of where you are, which is your personality structure, and maybe particularly kind of the vice or the passion, really like getting clear on how that's driving you and then at the same time holding, as you move through this territory, holding that North Star of the virtue. It's like okay, is the, is the work I'm doing in this liminal space? Is that in some way connected to the virtue? And that can be a really beautiful kind of guiding light or north star as you're, as you're navigating the midlife transition yeah, yeah, that's yeah.

Speaker 1:

I want to pause there because, um, I want to just take, if you can take, a minute to talk about, okay, what do you mean by passion, vice and what do you mean by virtue? Just for the sake of educating, not giving one for each, not giving the types passion and virtue. What do you mean by passion and what do you mean by virtue?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, great, because the language of the enneagram can be kind of funky sometimes it can, and if people aren't.

Speaker 1:

You know, I think sometimes we kind of take for granted the our own knowledge of how we throw around these terms, and I'm trying to be um more mindful of of explaining what some of these terms mean, just because many of my listeners are really new to the Enneagram.

Speaker 2:

Going to brush past that. Yeah, so good, thank you for that. So the way I think about or, you know, talk to folks who are kind of newer about the passion and the virtue is it's kind of, I mean, it's the drive, it's the underlying emotional driver of our type, emotional drive, emotional drive of the type, and so it's kind of woven through everything and you know, it's connected to our core motivation and then it also we can see how it shows up in the fixation and everything that we do. So it's kind of like the sounds, like the engine of the type, maybe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, and just to give an example, as a type four, my passion is envy, and so envy is always driving me in some way. You know it's not as loud now as it used to be, as I've done my own inner work and come to more awareness of how that operates in my life and so that, just to give an example, for the four it's envy, for the three it's well, it's very interesting with the three now it is tough one.

Speaker 1:

I'm not sure I I don't. I don't love the way that it's named. What do you think about that?

Speaker 2:

well, it's interesting, right, because, well, people call it self-deceit, which, uh, I totally, you know, I can, and also some people think they got it mixed up and it's actually vanity. And it's vanity for the three is actually thinking that, like I need to make everything happen, or I'm the one to make everything happen, and the self deceit is more like this confusion about the, the persona that I present, present actually being the reality of myself. So I can really feel both.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes it's like I kind of, I can play with both in my own. Okay, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for clarifying that. And what do you need? What do you mean by virtue?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'd love to hear how you describe virtue to folks. But to me it's like how you describe virtue to folks. But to me it's like it really feels like the, the, the highest quality of our type of when we've done our work, what we grow into, and like it's the north star of the guiding light for our development in our type. But how do you describe it?

Speaker 1:

what's like your simple way of describing um, yeah, I'm not sure if I have a totally simple way of describing it, but in Enneagram theory, it's the higher emotional center, right? The lower emotional center is the passion, the higher emotional center is the virtue, and so it is. It's this. It's sort of like a? Um, something we want to be moving towards, um keeping being mindful of and trying to notice when we have moments where we might be experiencing our virtue to like let it kind of sink into our experience, our human experience, into our body, into our heart and mind.

Speaker 1:

And so I think understanding, at least at a minimum, the definition of the virtue, for whatever your type might be, is really powerful, because it can be hard to locate. It is in that the passion is such a powerful force in our personality structure and to. When we start to kind of break that apart and shatter the structure a bit, I think light, the light of the virtue, sort of gets in yeah, and the watch out for me is a three is to think of the virtue of something as the goal that I then have to achieve.

Speaker 2:

Right, Because in my mind that's what my personality will do. We'll make it a goal. Then I'll go and, you know, do all the self-development work, thinking I'm going to achieve the virtue, and actually what it feels like more and what I see with clients is it feels more like like a flower that's unfurling or unfolding. That allows that, that virtue, to be more present. It's like it's already there, but we're kind of unfolding and allowing it to come out of us more and to be more present in us, which I like how it connects. I love that. You're a metaphor of the light coming in. It's really beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, all right. So let's circle back around to type one.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so type one, I mean what I, what I see in working with and I'm working with a self-preservation one right now in the midlife transition, and it really is around for her, as she's navigating a lot of lifequakes in her life, noticing where these rigid expectations come into play that make life harder for herself and for others around her, and dealing with that really tough inner critic, taking on all of the responsibility for herself and not allowing herself space to do the relaxation, the creative exploration work that actually allows for her to be spontaneous and fun, which is that line to seven yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense that that would be a type one's experience with, you know, trying to hold on a little longer than maybe they need to, because it's the rigidity, rigidity of control being really hard, really, really hard on themselves, so hard on themselves.

Speaker 1:

Change with, change with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, so hard on themselves. Change with change with. Yeah, yeah, there's also, I'm noticing, with ones um is the the challenge of not asking for help at work in particular, and kind of the delegation, and how do I delegate in a way that I feel I can trust people to do it as well as I'm going to do it? So we're working on some of that with her and you know, and then holding on that North Star and that guiding light of serenity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and the passion. The passion for the one is anger and the virtue of the one is serenity. Yeah, ok, how about type two?

Speaker 2:

yeah, okay, yeah, all right. How about type two? Oh, type twos, yeah, so wonderful. Um, I mean, for the type twos that I that I'm working with, I really see it is about them learning to connect with their own needs and feelings and not be so oriented to the other. Um, and as an example, I've been working with a woman who's wonderful and was behind the scenes a lot as a producer in film and television, but really dreamed of being a director, about stand like, stepping out front and really holding the creative vision, and so part of her work in the midlife transition in addition to some other life stuff she had going on was how does she actually step into the front so that her voice as the leader gets um, is listened to and she's really holding the creative vision, not supporting other people's vision?

Speaker 1:

um, yeah, yeah that's really interesting too and I think think the and the really just to bring in the relationship piece of it right.

Speaker 1:

Twos can tend to get enmeshed with the important people in their life and as kids start leaving the home I've seen twos really struggle with that, just even physical separation that heart, separation of that, the person who they have really enmeshed with with maybe one of their kids, in the way that they help them or do everything for them or just take care of everything in their life, and then to have that go away. I've seen twos really, really struggle with that. Yes, that makes so much sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and I'm noticing also with you know twos with that line to four. It's like a lot of twos women in particular that I'm seeing in midlife. Um really find value in having some kind of creative expression because it helps them connect to something inside themselves that is theirs and is true and really finding an authentic creative voice, whether or not they share that art with anybody else. Um is so tender and poignant for them to be able to learn how to do that so that they can then more step into the world and what they know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And the um, the passion for type two is pride and the just the simple definition of that. Um, how would you define that simply?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's so interesting, right Cause it. It doesn't mean feeling better than somebody else, but it's the sense of a little bit of inflation around the inflation, the inflation about oh, I can help them and everybody needs my help and I don't need help. And then there's also that funny thing that's deflation. So it's that better than less, the kind of inflation deflation that happens, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I've heard be right Explain it Like you can't have the deflation without an inflation. There's definitely that inflation going. And then the virtue for type two is humility, and so it's working towards that humility, which is just a sense of like you are who you are, finding joy, peace and freedom. Freedom like in the authentic, in their authentic self, like in just being who they are and not having to be overly significant or that deflation, not bouncing back between the two yeah, it's so beautiful, and the word ease comes to me as you say that right allowing more ease in their lives, yeah, yeah okay, and what about three?

Speaker 1:

and maybe you could share, if you feel, a little of your personal experience with what, since you're a three?

Speaker 2:

yeah, so three, um right, the, the passion is self-deceit or vanity, depending. You know who you want to listen to. Both are real in me and the North Star that is here is the is authenticity, and I don't, you know. It's so interesting because as a younger person first half of life, I wouldn't have said that I was inauthentic. So sometimes these are tricky, right, but for me what really happened was I had to connect to my heart and actually learn what it was like to be intimate about and share where I was unsure about things, where I had doubt, sort of the messy parts of me.

Speaker 2:

Oh, there's part of me that gets irritated and angry and frustrated, and I had really not shared that with even my closest people. You know, it was like I was always trying to maintain a veneer of having it all together that I didn't even know I was doing. So a lot of my work was learning how to express that, also in a group setting. So I was in a leadership program for about a year that really required me to show up and be messy. But the beauty is, once you do that and realize people still love you, it's like, oh, to be loved and seen for who you really are. That's the holy grail.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's the heart. The heart cry of the three is to be seen and loved for who you really are yeah yeah yeah, and so I definitely feel that more and more in my life and.

Speaker 2:

I think some of the things for a three like in terms of actual practices, things like, um, I mean process painting for a three, which is painting, that is not about what it looks like in the end, but it's about the process you go to and experiencing what's going on that paper as you're painting Great for a three. As an example, I do think group work for three, where you have to show up really authentically, is really really powerful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, those are great, great examples. And so the passion, like we said for the three, is self-deceit, is the way it's defined in most books, you might see, and vanity is I'm not vanity, yeah, yeah, no, vanity is yeah, yeah, vanity is the no. But what's the oh? Vanity is the ultimate passion. What's the oh? Vanity is the ultimate passion yeah veracity, authenticity, yeah, veracity or authenticity, yeah, okay, all right, I was like I knew it was a v, but it's not vanity. Yeah, yeah, good, yeah, okay. And what what about for four?

Speaker 2:

Oh well, I'm going to ask you about four, because I'm super curious what you noticed about your own midlife transition.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, it's such an interesting thing to think about right Of you know what was that or what has that been like, because I'm still in it, right?

Speaker 1:

I'm still in this period of time. I'm 51 and you know, but I can look back to see that that really did start to happen in my um, late thirties, early forties, where it was that sense of like, like, who am I Like? Who am I, what am I, what am I doing here? Like I'm not as satisfied with life as I want to be and you know how do I work through that and my relationships aren't what I want them to be. But I don't know how to do that, and so I had a lot of questions and thinking of that, of just like I don't.

Speaker 1:

I didn't know what, what to do, where to go, how to even begin to unpack. It was sort of like, um, it was sort of like the, the lid on my trauma got taken off and started to really really really come out to where I couldn't. I couldn't cover the lid anymore. I didn't cover the lid anymore. I didn't have the same, I guess, willpower to resist it as I had before. And so that process of, you know, really getting into therapy was where I had to start with that and really just unpack the trauma first and get some self-understanding around that. And then, as I've shifted, you know, in two years ago I quit my job to transition into what I'm doing now, and that was a big part of it. It was.

Speaker 1:

It was not that I was dissatisfied in my job at all, I loved it very much and I loved the people, but I started to feel like there was something more for me to do here in this life. I could no longer resist the urge to lean into that, and so it's a big risk. And, um, so it's a big risk. You know, there's necessarily need to take some big risks sometimes, I think, in this transition period. But, but for me personally, it's really been about settling into just who I am like, owning who I am as a human being, how God created me to be like that. There is goodness there, that there's, you know, something beautiful to offer the world and really, really allowing myself to just go into that, and so I think that it feels much, feeling much more comfortable in my body. That's been a big change for me as well as the body changes.

Speaker 1:

Know we, I know you and I have talked in the past.

Speaker 1:

Like there's men, there's menopause is a part of this transition for women and the body goes through changes that are very confusing, right, and so like just letting that process happen with some grace and a lot of grace towards myself in that. So yeah, just feeling more settled like, just generally more settled in who I am as a human being, who I am as a woman, and letting go of a lot of defenses, like I was, you know, pretty defensive and I used to be very defensive, yeah yeah, all that's fun.

Speaker 2:

So and I could hear the equanimity there of you moving towards the equanimity in addition to kind of the therapy and the Enneagram work, what else helped you as you kind of were navigating?

Speaker 1:

So as a self-preservation, for what really helped me was leaning into community and allowing my hurt to come out, and not not so much masochism of like just enduring long suffering that the self-preservation for has with painful, with pain, and so, um, I don't hold onto things as long as I used to, and but that has required community.

Speaker 1:

Like you said, it's required having other people in my life who aren't afraid of what I say and who welcome my feelings and all that they are, and not, you know, running away from me or not abandoning me. Right, for have a big sensitivity to abandonment, and I have. I experienced that a few years ago, I had a good friend who just up and left and started doing this work because, I mean, I don't know why, right, there was no closure to that, but it was a difficult loss, very confusing loss, but it made me realize like, wow, I really need people in my life who who are open to truly knowing me, like I don't have to hide myself anymore in order to be accepted.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's so I you know I have a pretty strong four wings, so everything you're saying makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking about one of the early on in this retreat I was in in this leadership program. There was a woman in the retreat who was just driving me nuts and she was like every time we'd be in circle she'd be like eating snacks really loudly and I'm just bugging her. I was like totally triggered and at lunch one day I lost it on her, like I actually yelled. I got up and yelled and there have been some other things, but I yelled and, wendy, I looked around and I thought everybody at the table would like I'd be cast out of the kingdom. That's what.

Speaker 2:

That's what, like the feeling in my body came up with. Yeah, and you know, I looked around and you know what happened. They all clapped wow because she'd been so annoying in various ways, uh, that it was like someone was speaking up the anger towards this woman about her behavior. It wasn't just about the snacks, but that was the straw that broke the camel's back and it was such a corrective experience to have to show my messy stuff, the real emotion, especially the anger. I think that was something I was really looking on and to still be loved and seen. So I can really relate to what you're saying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we need people in our lives who are willing to do that for us, and it's worth finding them. Yes, you might have to let go of some things in order to make space for that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's interesting that in midlife I mean I have I of course have old friends and I have a whole new cadre of new friends who are all different kind of soul friend. Yeah, me too. If I could wish anything for anyone in midlife is to find, you know, a few more soul friends.

Speaker 1:

Yes, definitely For sure. Yeah, okay, so let's move on to type five.

Speaker 2:

Okay, five is beautiful. I'm married to a type five, so I know Right. So the passion of the five is avarice, and the way that I describe avarice is actually hoarding, and it's like a hoarding of knowledge, of energy, of resources, like it's just that it's that instinctive thing to try to hoard yeah, yeah, and there's like this reluctance to opening, a reluctance to opening up, yeah, themselves to things, because they've got this.

Speaker 1:

I've got to hold on to what I have, yeah yeah, and so for the five.

Speaker 2:

it's like I think the really big thing is that growing that self-awareness of when and how often that happens and learning, as aranio says, just more. He says sometimes with the five he just says more, you know, it's like more emotion, more giving of your money away, more giving of yourself, more showing up about your, with your knowledge, the, and stepping out into the world. Yeah, and then, of course, the virtue is non-attachment, which is kind of a funny wording, right, but the way that I talk about non-attachment is like just seeing things as they are, without, without being so attached and again, without hoarding, like like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a letting things freely flow in and out.

Speaker 1:

There can be, there can be, a free flow of things coming in and things going out, and that there's enough.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and enoughness, maybe, that they can lean into yeah yeah, as an example, I can just see in my husband's own midlife transition. He has been a computer programmer really common for five years technical jobs and he's in tech. He's a programmer and um, he has done such a beautiful job. He's begun coaching youth rowing and he got into it thinking it was like an intellectual challenge because he loves everything about rowing. Um, but actually to see him step into more leadership and become like a mentor for these young men and I think it surprised him. You know about the beauty of that because the kind of the oh, the emotions and sort of tracking and helping these young men grow has been really meaningful to him so that's very cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we don't get to hear a lot about fives, because fives are very private, you know. They don't come to coaching a lot, they don't, you know, and so I love it when fives open up to doing their work. It's amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, we're moving on to six yeah, six, um, I mean six, right, the passion is is fear, and then the virtue is courage. So it's like, um and I know a lot of sixes don't even resonate as much with the word fear. It might be, you know, they're a little anxious or they worry or something like that um, but it's like for them it's finding that internal courage connecting to their intuition, being able to move forward a little faster in the things. Yeah, I mean, what else would you add around that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would say a little bit of what you just said about maybe not being so risk adverse adverse right, or if it's the sexual subtype going a little bit slower, even in what they're, where they're taking risk, you know, and that going against, up against fear as a way to conquer fear you know, know.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, this you know, it's like they get a double dose of fear. Their passion is fear and, like you said, they can really have a hard time even seeing fear at work until they take time to slow down and quiet the brain because their brains are so active. The brain, because their brains are so active always thinking, thinking, thinking. And so I think a good practice for sixes is meditation to try to just slow down the thinking and and let the truth of fear come forward so that it truly can be worked with and acknowledged. And when it's that? I think for sixes, it's that, you know, if they can hear, like what we resist, persist, we all have that right. But for sixes, they really resist fear. If they could just stop resisting that as much, I think they would find more courage. Yeah, beautiful, yeah, okay, and seven, oh, sevens.

Speaker 2:

For some reason I have a lot.

Speaker 1:

I love that you said like you wanted to be a seven, because I wanted to be a seven too.

Speaker 2:

I think lots of people it sounds really great, but I'll tell you in working with a lot of sevens in the midlife transition it's not easy, you know.

Speaker 2:

So, in working with a lot of sevens in the midlife transition, it's not easy, you know. So, yeah, so the seconds it's like learning to really be stop avoiding what's uncomfortable on an emotional level, on a practical level, right, and like learning, like noticing that you can actually lean. If you slow down and lean into it, it's not that bad, you're not going to get trapped in there forever. And then, to you know, really catch yourself in the fantastical planning, this continuous and fantastical planning. It's more fantastical for the sexual seven, but all of them do this sort of planning, planning, planning, planning, like and noticing that that's an attempt to move out into the future and not be present to where you are. Yes, and when they do that, then it's like things don't get completed in the present. Right, it's like, oh, you're five, you're 10 steps down the road planning for that, but you haven't actually picked up the phone and called the person you need to call today.

Speaker 1:

yeah, being present, yeah, absolutely being present.

Speaker 2:

I love that um and so the work that I'm often doing with with sevens is the somatic work in coaching around slowing down and being with actually what's here now, and then there's often a lot of um work around actually helping them structure and plan, like all these projects they have going on at a real practical.

Speaker 1:

Yeah to to finish something right, like, just just finish something, and how can you get that that thing finished.

Speaker 1:

And then to and to sit with it being finished, without moving on too quickly, like sit and be in the presence, with yourself, present with what you've done.

Speaker 1:

You have a friend who is she's a social seven, so she's the counterpart, and a lot of her work has been in like surrendering to Holy will, right, which is the which is the Holy idea of the seven is holy will of really like letting things unfold as they're meant to unfold and not this reframing, um, like just leaning into really acceptance as to how things are in the moment, whether it it's fun or it's not, if it's uncomfortable, just to sit in the discomfort for a period of time and, like you said, it's like a building up that resistance to the discomfort so that, like you're not going to get trapped here, like there's there's something for you to discover in this moment, and so just just stay.

Speaker 1:

Like, I think, if we can help our sevens kind of put their feet on the ground you said that somatic piece get their feet really grounded and so that they can stay in it just a little bit longer, yeah, and so the passion of seven is gluttony, right, and it's not about food. Like it can, it can include a bit about food. Um, that's very individual, but it's more about, like, having just a little bit of everything, like I want a little this, I want a little bit of this, I want a lot, a lot of life. And then the uh virtue of the seven is sobriety.

Speaker 2:

Sobriety and that would be, you know, kind of self-explanatory, but it's that groundedness yeah, and I will say that you know a lot of the sevens that I work with in midlife have had some kind of substance issue. So there's actually a literal thing around sobriety here for the seven, because they've been having a lot of exploration and fun and trying to chase excitement with some kind of substances. And especially during COVID it became a bigger issue for many people.

Speaker 1:

So I think there's that makes a lot of sense, but I hadn't heard it said that way before. I thought you brought that up. Yeah, okay, and so moving on to eighth Almost done.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, eighth, and I'm thinking about, you know, the holy will, the holy ideas. Of course, apply in some ways to all the types, right when we get to that level, but for really applies so much to the, the three assertive types, is also that idea that life has a flow. You don't have to make everything happen. Yeah, it's beautiful. Um, yeah, so for the eight, you know, the way that I sometimes think about it is it's like moving from lust, which is, you know, I want what I want when I want it. It's like, you know, kind of yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like that intensity, that crave for the intensity of experience.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and working on letting people see their vulnerability, softening, finding more compassion for others, being more relationship oriented for others being more relationship oriented right is often so important for the eight and moving to that virtue of innocence where to just sort of see, to see things like a child can see them right. There's no need to control or be strong or yeah, to see things with fresh eyes, which is a hard one for the eight, I mean it's it's a tricky one to even describe to the eight.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I'm working with an eight right now and a lot of it is about slowing down. It was about just slowing down because they move so fast on everything and as um she's entering into um, this kind of later stage of life, you know, towards getting towards retirement and stuff, and it's like okay, what happens when you don't have something to charge after, right, and so like helping, helping to, just okay, in this time, in this, this transition, let's practice being slower, taking more time to make decisions, more time to spend with relationships, and practicing that vulnerability, like letting someone else help you yeah, with something right that's really important for aids. Like let someone else help you with something right, that's really important for AIDS. Like let someone else help you and you can be cared for as much as you care for the people in your life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's really beautiful. I'm thinking about some of the AIDS. I suspect and have observed that AIDS in midlife are like the most likely to have an intense burnout situation that forces some kind of transition, versus listening to the soul rumble without that yeah that's so true right, yeah, so it's like where they have someone else in their life that says it's time yeah and it drives them into like therapy or coaching or something of you know.

Speaker 1:

it's time to slow down, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I have that as an example. I have a beautiful, very good friend, dear friend, who had a um, a real burnout, and we're talking about like the brain fog, the body shutting down all of that stuff, um, and she ended up having to. She left her corporate job and what? Just such an amazing story but ended up becoming a psychedelic guide, never going back to the corporate world, becoming a psychedelic guide focused on healing women who have been in high demand. Religions working with wounds. Yeah, I mean just these huge transformation and like I get chills about it because eights, when they're on the path, the level of transformation they can do and how they'll go after their, their new you know, this new thing is is such an inspiration, it's so beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, very cool. All right, let's finish it up with nines oh nines, yeah for nines.

Speaker 2:

You know that that virtue is right action and it's like nines can be busy. You know that sloth as the passion is so confusing for some folks. Right, because it does not. You look at a nine. You're like they're busy. Yeah, well, they're busy with everybody else's agendas. Yeah, and so that that guiding star for the nine in the midlife transition is right action. How do you put yourself in the picture, how do you actually put what you need into this story? And that you're not helping everybody else to do everything that needs to get done for them?

Speaker 2:

but you become a main character, as my kids say, you know, main character, energy or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, you need to have more main character becomes a leading star in your own life yes right yeah yeah, I think it's really about finding who they are and really like settling into what they want and what they desire.

Speaker 1:

And I think many of them kind of get to this stage and they sort of wake up a little bit like, hey, wait a minute.

Speaker 1:

Here there's that kind of like I didn't how, how did I get here, I didn't agree to this right, and they have that moment I've seen it with nines where it's like, hey, wait a minute, they need that to to like push them towards right action of like figuring out who they are, figuring out what they want, figuring out how they want their the end of their life to be. In many ways, you know, they tend to stay in relationships for too long and so many times it includes like having a little housekeeping in their life, who they have in their life, and it's neat. It's neat to see them do that, to really come into right action. But I love the way you describe sloth too, because it is it's a confusing word, you know, it's not lazy, it's just that they don't, they're not working on for themselves, they're doing everything for everybody and they're focused on everybody else's agenda because they don't know their own agenda. And that right action is getting in touch with their own agenda.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's uncomfortable not to know your own agenda.

Speaker 1:

Well, I mean, I think it would be right, but you and I both know our agendas, mm-hmm. So my husband's a nine, and so I'm always intrigued by that, like how can you not know, right? And so I have to be really, really patient and I want to move into action much quicker than he wants to move into action, and so it's like, okay, we, I have to slow down too because I know what I want, like it's right there, don't have to think very hard about it, you know.

Speaker 1:

And so letting, giving just a lot of space for some time to think and consider. And the thing that he has done that has been the biggest help for him is he started walking alone at night, started going out for walks at night by himself and just spending time with himself. That's been like a. I've seen a marked change in him in the last year since he started doing that. Wow, getting into the body. Right, it's a body time.

Speaker 2:

Get into the body, use the body to wake yourself up was there an intention with the walk, or that he set for himself, or was it? Did that come naturally, that something spurred.

Speaker 1:

No, it was a suggestion I made. It's like practicing my coaching. It was like it's a. It was a suggestion I made you know.

Speaker 1:

So of course he went and did it because I made the suggestion and but in the course of the first couple of times, you know, then he was like, oh, wait a minute, like I actually really like this, like there's something good, and then he took ownership of it there. So, no, he didn't, I don't. You know, he didn't come to it on his own, I did make the suggestion, but that's okay you know.

Speaker 1:

Well, this has been just a really good conversation, nevada, I can't wait for others to listen to it, but, as we close, tell people where they can find you, connect with you, find out about your work, all that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, great. I mean, the easiest way to get in touch with me is through my website, lanechangeconsultingcom. That's also the home for all the facilitation work and coaching work. And then I'm also on Instagram at lanechangeconsult, and that's more the home for all the facilitation work and coaching work. And then I'm also on Instagram at lane change consult, and that's more of my graphic work. But you know folks can connect with me there as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Okay, and I'll also. I'll put those in the show notes too, so you know, people have to try to remember. But yeah, I've always loved your lane change.

Speaker 2:

Consulting it came to me in the shower one day when I was like 28 or something your lane change consulting. This is such a great use of it. Came to me in the shower one day when I was like 28 or something.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, well, is there anything left you would like to say?

Speaker 2:

You know I feel kind of calm to just say that metaphor again that the midlife transition is topsy-turvy and is a period of goo and you know, find people that will blow on the embers of who you are becoming.

Speaker 1:

Yes, blow on the embers of who you are becoming. I'm going to put that in the show notes too, because I think people are going to want to write that one down. Well, thank you so much, nevada, and I'll connect with you soon. Yeah, thank you, wendy, it was a treat.

Speaker 2:

Bye, bye.