Your Enneagram Friend

Breathwork Insights and Enneagram Wisdom from Courtney

August 30, 2024 • Wendy Busby • Season 1 • Episode 8

Share episode

Send Wendy a Message! If you'd like her to respond add your phone number or email to the message!

Ever wondered how somatic practices like breathwork can transform your life? As a breathwork facilitator, Courtney provides insights into the power of integrating body awareness with mental and emotional insights. We discuss how understanding Enneagram types can revolutionize personal and professional relationships by fostering empathy and effective communication. We challenge the cultural tendency to undervalue bodily intuition and advocate for a holistic appreciation of our centers of intelligence, recognizing how our bodies store experiences and influence behaviors.

What does it mean to see beauty and meaning in every aspect of life? Courtney, a Type Four, shares her lifelong connection to finding beauty and meaning, from childhood memories to her current work. We explore the emotional intensity often associated with Type Fours and offer reassurance to those navigating these deep emotional spaces. Courtney’s reflections provide a unique insight into the Type Four's gift of recognizing and celebrating beauty in the most unlikely places, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in personal growth and the Enneagram.

You can connect with Courtney at https://www.courtneyellerwilliams.com/

Are you curious about what your Enneagram Type is?
Click here to buy the online Enneagram Test https://wendybusbycoaching.com/enneagram-type-test

For more Enneagram insights follow Wendy on Instagram @your_enneagram_friend
https://www.instagram.com/your_enneagram_friend/

Are you ready to begin your coaching journey?
Book your 1st coaching session here for FREE, no strings attached, I promise!
https://wendybusbycoaching.com/schedule-a-session-1

Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where I have engaging and thought-provoking conversations with my friends about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to know yourself better. Thank you, to know yourself better. Thank you so much for listening. Today I have the great pleasure of talking with my friend, courtney Eller Williams. Courtney and I oh see, I just totally blinked. I'm going to start over.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, is it helpful if I put on headphones too? Does that matter with your?

Speaker 1:

no, it, that's all. That's all on your end, like okay, if it feels better for you to have headphones on, let me, let me see really quick.

Speaker 2:

are you having a hard time hearing me? No, I'm just trying, let me see really quick. Sorry, can you hear me if I talk?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, you're clear Okay.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that feels a little bit more focused, since we're stuff going on in the apartment, so hopefully that'll be more cool. Okay, okay, all right, I don't want to do that. Audio quality.

Speaker 1:

Okay, all right, I don't want to do that audio quality, all right, okay. Hey everyone, welcome to the your Enneagram Friend Podcast, where I have engaging and thought-provoking conversations with my friends about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to know yourself better. Thank you for listening. Today, I have the great pleasure of talking with one of my very good friends, courtney Eller-Williams. Hey, courtney.

Speaker 2:

Hey, wendy, good to see you. Really fun to be here.

Speaker 1:

Good to see you, as always, and I always have such a good time talking to you. So I like to start, courtney, with asking my guest questions. Like you know, who are you, what? Where do you live? Maybe a little about your family, really anything that you feel comfortable with. That lets us get to know who Courtney is.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I'm living in New York City and I've been here about five years. Before that we were in California for about 20 years and when we first got married we lived in New York and so there was this. Someday we'll move back. Someday we'll move back and we actually we just had our 36th anniversary this week, so thank you. So it took a while for this someday to get here, but we got here and I have three grown sons and one is still in California and two are in New York with us, either in Brooklyn or here with us.

Speaker 2:

And let's see, I'm an Enneagram coach and educator and a breathwork facilitator and I work in person in New York and then also, just from living, you know all the places we've lived. I have a lot of people that I get to work with across the country and across the world, which makes it really fun. So I don't, even though we moved here right before the pandemic and kind of had to hunker down moved here right before the pandemic and kind of had to hunker down I still had my community and so that kind of helped me process it and and reach out to those people and work on that. Who am? I question that, you know, we all love to work on.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, yeah, and um share what your Enneagram type is.

Speaker 2:

So I'm a self-preservation four and yeah, yeah, with a social blind. So you know, having these public conversations is always fun it actually is so fun but it is interesting how those pieces show up of our instincts. And you know, as, as you've heard me say, I think subtypes are the secret sauce. I'm always like how does, how did the instincts work? How is this happening? So I love that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, under, understanding the subtypes is key to really understanding yourself. Like you can learn about your type and that's good, but when you really decide to dive all the way in, you have to explore the subtype and what you just said about being social blind. What that means is your instinctual sequence, is your self-preservation dominant, your social repressed or social blind? And that plays into how your type gets expressed in everything.

Speaker 2:

Exactly and it's so key to in relationship like understanding and I work with couples and understanding their sequencing, because you know how you show up in personality a lot of times is your dominant type or can show up in your repressed instinct, I'm sorry, your dominant instinct or your repressed instinct, because that's how you're trying to get your needs met and that's where you're sensing in of like, oh, am I safe, am I not safe? What's happening here? And so there can be such, in my experience, such conflict in the instinctual sequence, even more so than type differences sometimes.

Speaker 2:

Yes it's so true.

Speaker 1:

So, as an example, my husband Josh, he's a sexual nine, so he's dominant sexual and he's self-preservation repressed, and so we kind of bump heads a little bit in that area where that's a dominant experience for me, in a repressed or blind experience for him, and so that um shows up a hundred percent, no, hundred percent. It's interesting and so important to um get to the place where you have some understanding if you're, if you're truly doing Enneagram work for personal development and inner work and all that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, and similar with my husband. He's a social tree, he's self-prez blind. So we meet in the middle. We're sexual second, which is great. You know, our sexual, our second instinct comes up and is can be in support of our dominant or kind of pull up our repressed. And so it's great to you know, when we're in a good space it's great because we're complementary. You know, I can pull up his self-prez, he can pull up my social and we can help each other grow there. But in times of stress or conflict, you know your area that you're repressed in. If somebody else is dominant, in that you're like what are, what's wrong with your priorities, like you, hello, this is not okay, or you can minimize it, or you feel very insecure in that area. So that can, you know, naturally push into some friction. And so if you can figure out the way to kind of have that three centered, three instinct approach through things, you can kind of ride that wave of of relationship and really help each other become more of your true self.

Speaker 1:

Yes, exactly so when. When did you first learn about the Enneagram? When did it show up in your life?

Speaker 2:

So over 20 years ago now, which is pretty shocking to think it was that long ago. But we lived in Beijing for five years and my kids were baby like well, not babies, but seven, four and one, and it was, as you can imagine, out of your home culture. We were learning to speak the language, learning we were in a foreign neighborhood, which is where we were allowed to live, and you know you're at the bus stop going. Hi, friend, do you speak English, can you? You know you're trying to figure out your way and you're realizing that all your patterns, all your ways of dealing with your life and getting you know, figuring out how to do it, were out the window because I was in a foreign culture and so it was very I was ripe for the change. So it was, you know that perfect timing. But I had people would travel and they'd bring back English language books, and so there was a lot of book swapping going on. Oh, I have this book, I have this book.

Speaker 2:

And one of my friends brought back the Richard Rohr Enneagram book and she was like oh, you guys, we really need to read this. And I was like, oh, you guys, we really need to read this. And I was like I hate those. I never find myself in those things. I either don't get included in these things or I'm too special to be in these things. Hi, how to say, you're a four.

Speaker 2:

I was so stripped down and so bare and raw in that space of that, out of my home culture, trying to raise my kids, trying to learn Chinese, trying to, you know, navigate all these things, I really was able to see like, oh, there are aspects of me that aren't, that aren't really me, but they're the way that I'm figuring out to get through and they're not working, and so, and so what does that mean? And and how do I work with that? And then the, the husband of this of my friend, happened to get on board with it too, and so he got all the husbands of all the friends to read it, so we all learned the Enneagram at the same time. And then it just became this Kool-Aid that we were all like wait, and because we were in Beijing, we didn't have a lot of resources, and it was early on, the resources weren't there that are here, but it was just life changing.

Speaker 2:

But a funny piece of that is, I noticed, well, one when they talk about the emotional habits, the vices. I was like envy, really, what a lame, what a lame vice, comparing the other vices with mine and feeling like I didn't measure up. Envy in action, envy in action. And then, yeah, and then I realized too, when people would say, oh, do you have that book? I want to read that, I would be like, oh wait, did I tell you what type I am? Oh, I didn't. Okay, yeah, you can borrow it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because I'm like here I am Read the chapter on four, so you can understand me. That's right.

Speaker 2:

That's right, or I don't want you to see inside my yeah, I mean just so funny, yeah, Objectively so funny. And you know, as we've, you know we've talked about you you read all of them and you're like oh yeah. And then you get to yours and you go, oh yeah, oh no, Someone has spied me behaving badly and taken notes and disseminated them.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, exactly. It hits you with some humiliation, like I've heard. I think I've even heard Richard Rohr say that you know like when, when you feel, when you read your type and you feel a little humiliated, like you know you're on the right track. Yeah, that that's not a pleasant experience.

Speaker 2:

No, and it's confronting, it's confronting and it's. You know, through my, my work, I've realized they're not everybody is going to jump into it like we did, and the timing was right for me to do it. But you know there's some people that go, oh yeah, that's cool, I'm whatever type, and they don't ever look at it again. Some people are catch the fire and they're like, oh, I really see that this is a tool, but it's only a valuable tool if you can use it. And so you know it does require study and starting to do that, but it's. It's that journey to yourself, it's that journey to your essence and who you really are. And so that's not, I mean, it's not a walk in the park, it's hard work, it's inner work.

Speaker 1:

And just for the sake of the people who are listening, who aren't any around coaches or practitioners or and don't want to learn the whole system like, it's still worth learning about your own type, yes, and in addition to that, learning about the type of the most important person in your life, whether that's your partner your spouse, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Right, like it does so much for relationships, to understand that If all you are open to doing, willing to doing, is learning about your type and then exploring the type of your partner, like I mean I cannot press this enough Like it is worth it. Yes, it takes effort, but it's worth it, friends, it's worth it.

Speaker 2:

It's so exactly that. But you start to not only do you develop self-compassion for yourself to see oh, this is where my attention is going, this is what I'm trying to do, this is what my partner is trying to do. Through their strategies, they're striving through their type structure and it's not a oh, he won't do that, it's he can't do that. That's his lens of perception is causing him to look here. My lens of perception is causing me to look here. There's nine different perspectives.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it doesn't make either one of you wrong, it just makes you different.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Each other in the difference Exactly and and even just understand. I mean, we've been together since we were 17 and you know, as a four, I'm all about the beautiful journey and all the meaningful moments on it, and he's a three. He's like could we please take the efficient route, give me the high level information, like don't get caught in the details, and I'm like, but the details are where you know, and so to understand it's just a different perspective. It's not as I have perhaps accused him before of not appreciating. You know all of the things.

Speaker 2:

It's not that it's really so much of. It is not personal, you know. So it's been really powerful. And then to understand my kids and my extended family and you know people I work with understanding their lens of perception, what they're looking for when we're in a conversation If I'm having a conversation with a six, they might be looking for certainty and security in the conversation, and so there's certain things information that may not occur to me that I can provide that's going to make the communication a lot more compassionate and helpful and they're going to feel more seen.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and all of the questions that they're asking you isn't that they don't believe you, right? They're seeking certainty, and then to get certainty, they have to ask all the questions that are roaming around inside of them. Yeah, and so it's not about arguing with you, or you know they bring contrary points of view, that you know someone doesn't understand what's happening. It can make people feel defensive, or? Yeah?

Speaker 2:

And then, before you go, oh, what's missing, what's wrong with me? You can say oh, and it's like Nope, not about you.

Speaker 1:

They're on, they have their stuff, I have my stuff and that's okay yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's huge. It's really been one of the most transformational tools to work with.

Speaker 1:

So you mentioned when you were introducing yourself that you are a breathwork practitioner or facilitator. I think you said facilitator, yeah, what does that mean?

Speaker 2:

Well, so it's, as you know, I'm so excited about it. Well, so it's I, as you know, I'm so excited about it. The re and the reason I'm so excited about it is that it brings this important somatic piece to the Enneagram that you know, we all, we have an understanding that a three centered approach is so important in order to have transformation and balance. But, a lot of our.

Speaker 1:

Define somatic.

Speaker 2:

Okay, Somatic means in the body, In the body. So our type structure lives in our bodies. There is a specific somatic bodily profile of each type so you can, even when you start to work with people, you can start to pick up pieces like, for example, a type one. Their somatic profile will be maybe more rigid or more solid.

Speaker 2:

They have, they can have armoring body, armoring in their jaw the jaw, the cervical spine their diaphragm, because it's all about control, measured, understand, you know, repressing that anger that ones are trying to work with and so that lives in your body. And so we can learn all about our emotions, about our mental patterns and fixations and if and we can clear those out and and start to, you know, work with our neuroplasticity and and work better, different, whatever words that you want to call it on your growth. But if you're still, if the type is still resonating, that vessel that you're holding all of that in, it's like you are baking something and you get all new fresh ingredients but you're still using that battered pan that's all dented and everything. There's still going to be pieces of that that show up because it's still. Those are the pathways and you know, we, that idea of the body, keeps the score, that Bessel van der Kolk book, and we go through experiences in our life and our body kind of takes those experiences and almost encapsulates that experience to hold it so we can keep moving and we can keep going forward and we don't generally come back and process that.

Speaker 2:

That takes, you know, that takes a lot of work to be mindful and to be aware, and so we have all this encapsulated type structure that we're holding, and it's energy expensive to hold that in. You know that's costing us. And so to be able to work with our mental and emotional patterns and our somatic profile through breath work is a way that you can really free yourself. And, as we know, the study of the Enneagram is about being present. When we're in personality, we're not present, and so we can work with our bodies too, because our body is in the present moment, and we can work with our body and be in the present moment and stay out of our type structure Not that we're trying to get rid of it. We're not trying to get rid of it. We're not trying to get rid of personality at all.

Speaker 1:

Um it serves a purpose. Exactly, there's a purpose, but the point is to be more balanced, like you said, being balanced in your centers of intelligence, and have you found in your experience that, um, the body gets devalued, like there's this, there's this? We think everything is happening up in the brain and that's where it's important to put energy and certain types based on the center of intelligence that they live in. And you know, one is overworking, one is underworking, one might be online slightly, but culturally the body is devalued. I agree right here and don't pay attention. That's like you know, when cause my husband's a gut, he's a body type as a nine, I just feel it in my gut, and because he works in an environment that wants data, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You're like that's not. That's not data, like you have no proof for what you're sensing and that is devalued, that intuition is devalued, and so we have this, I think way culturally kind of cutting ourselves off at the neck.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we have a wisdom in our body. We have heart wisdom, we have head wisdom and we have body wisdom and it feels we're moving a little bit towards a more heart awareness, heart opening. But the body piece is still not as online as I would like. And and so the breath work. The part of the miracle of it is, you know, you're using it's a, it's a three-part breath. You're doing two inhales, one exhale, all through the mouth. So when we're breathing through the mouth, we're taking our mind offline. We're kind of giving it like here's the task, here's this little pattern. We're going to work on that, we're going to focus on that with our mind, and then we can start to tune into our body. We can start to notice oh, you know, here's where the energy is flowing, here's where there are constrictions, and you start to move that through because you know where attention goes. Energy flows, and so when we can just give our minds a break our minds work so hard and we can just set them aside and allow ourselves to tune into our body Not only do we clear these stagnant energies that we've been holding on to. You know, it's interesting.

Speaker 2:

You start the first seven minutes or so of breathwork, the resistance comes up because your mind is like oh, no, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm in control here. And so you keep it's like the joke, like keep coming back to the breath, keep coming back to the breath. And what I've noticed is, with each of the types, the defense mechanism starts to come up. And so that idea because you know our defense mechanism is in place to help us avoid you know what we're avoiding so it keeps us away from that. And so for types like, say, a two who's repressing their feelings and their emotions, in the beginning they're like I'm fine, I'm, I don't need anything, I'm fine, nothing's happening here. Or there were like, if I'm working one-on-one, they're worrying how I'm doing. Yes, like, oh, are you? It's like yeah, no, no, no, this is this is about you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the defense mechanism too is called repression, and it's repressing their own emotions and feelings for other. Yeah, yeah, so oh go ahead.

Speaker 2:

Did you have? Oh no, so yeah, so it. So it's been really interesting and one of the things that I've noticed is that even our so I said type lives in our bodies. We know that it shows up either in our body armoring or many things. It also shows up in the our inhalation and our exhalation patterns, and so each of the types and, if you can think of it, if we think about the Hornavian triads, how we are in relationship, whether we're moving towards, we're moving against, we're moving towards against and towards, no, towards against, away, away yeah, funny how I forgot the away, which is the for Going towards, going against, against and going away All the time.

Speaker 2:

Yes, going towards, going against, against and going away, yes, and so I can talk about that a little bit, just because I think it's really interesting and it just is a good example of how our type lives in our body and affects us. So, for example, type one is moving towards, they're seeking agreement and they're inhibiting both their inhale and their exhale, because that's a way to exert control and order and that's that rigidness because they're inhibiting their inhale and their exhale, so they have really shallow breath.

Speaker 2:

And imagine how much they're holding all of that energy that they're using to hold everything in their body and how their movement pulling in the arrow of seven for spontaneity and freedom and that for like, knowing that we can help you know the breath can help you move through. For two is moving towards in their in relationships. They're seeking agreement. They're also inhibiting inhale and exhale, but it can be waiting for what the other person is doing. It can be seeing and trying to shapeshift and align and match that pull towards other for connection.

Speaker 1:

It's that anticipation. Like I'm going to withhold my breath, I'm going to hold my breath in anticipation of what the other person might want, might need.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, how should my breath be here to be what you need?

Speaker 1:

Yes, so if the other person breathes, then I'll breathe the same way, because then we're connecting.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes. So a three moves against. And so that's that asserting my way, here's my you know, here's my ideas, here's how I'm presenting. It's like that rush forward and so they inhibit their exhale. So it's that filling up with breath, it's that energizing forward breath, kind of forward chest breath, not letting it go because that could cause them to slow down and ground. And you know, come in contact with that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I hadn't, I hadn't heard it described like that before, but I but I've said, but I have said before about threes is that they have this energy right here. That's just constantly. It's pulses forward pulses forward. Yeah, yeah, they're back and it pushes them forward. So, yeah, sense that they would um embrace the inhale because that's the filling, but resist the exhale because that's a slowing down like it slows down, it slows down. Yeah, it brings you to a more ease, rest and ease and being with?

Speaker 2:

what is you're being with? What is you're not pulling in the new which can keep you pulled forward? It's almost like they're on their toes, ready to go.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, what about force? So force move away, so that physical withdraw it inhibits the inhale. So if you think you know fours are known for their sighing, their exhale, you know it's that air has let out of your sails. It's that feeling deflated, it's that feeling disappointed, disappointed chronic disappointment syndrome.

Speaker 2:

Yes, which you know, um, and that longing you're, they're seeking that ideal and so, in a way, because fours with their defense mechanism, interjection, they're bringing so much in it's almost like you can't, you're not bringing any more in because you're full in that way. So you're just, you know, it's that pulling down and that not it's the doing repressed that fours can also have of not moving forward and not you know cause, they're waiting till they're in the mood, or they're waiting till the. You know, the things are Goldilocks, as I call it. I'm in a Goldilocks phase. It has to be just right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they struggle with being energized towards action. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So fives also struggle with being energized. They move away that physical withdrawal going internally so they inhibit their inhale as well. Okay, so pulling that, it's kind of like, if you think of that, making your world smaller, not bringing anything new but holding on to what is there. And so that idea, the Everest.

Speaker 1:

Yes, the five Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly, and that pulling away for safety and privacy, like something new even fresh air breath, that's an can be seen as an invasion, as a having to deal with something new, having to process and having to do that the six is moving towards. They're also that seeking agreement and it's that, you know that projection that can be like oh, let me, I'm out here, I'm seeing what's happening, oh, I'm not sure, let me go back. And so there, because there's that movement between other focus and inward focus, that they can kind of go back and forth between their inhale and exhale are not really free because they're not sure. They're not sure there isn't that security and certainty of like I can. I can breathe fully, there's enough air for me, there's enough space for me, I, you know I'm safe, I'm not safe. So there's that again, trying to get a little bit of control.

Speaker 1:

What I hear, what I hear you saying, is that sometimes they can fully embrace their inhale inhale, and sometimes they can fully embrace their exhale, but it's, but it's chaotic. Yes, the body doesn't know what to do.

Speaker 2:

Yes, the inconsistency of yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how I like to think of it, that way, and it's that and also, you know it's you're keeping an eye on the door. You're keeping an eye because there you have that hypervigilance sometimes that sixes can experience, so that, if you think of that, that that's hard to do, that can be hard to do. Sevens move against and it's that inhibiting their exhale. Because you're moving and you're energized. And then also the energetic pattern of a seven is all the energy up here, so it's up and out, up and out, up and out.

Speaker 2:

And when sevens are stressed, they, if they're looking for fight, flight or freeze. The energy is up here. Their flight it's hard for them to do. Or their freeze, they're more stuck in freeze because the energy is not down in their feet for them to actually flee in that way, and so that exhale is causing them to fall down, that exhale is causing them to deflate and that doesn't feel energizing, that doesn't feel good and that doesn't keep them moving forward in that way. Okay, which is which is interesting.

Speaker 2:

And then eighth, as you could imagine, move against. That inhibits the exhale, and it's that asserting themselves and that powering up of their breath and that kind of pushing into that full chested, like powering through and doing that and so inhibiting that exhale. You know eights are denying their vulnerability, denying all the stuff that's really going on, because they feel that need to be powerful and keep moving through and so to stop, and kind of exhale makes you vulnerable, it opens you to that space and so they can have an inhibited exhale to do that and, um, you know when the inhale um that they embrace keeps them guarded guarded and powered up, powered up, yeah, and then nines move away, they withdraw, as the four and fives do, inhibiting their inhale, and part of that, you know, the inhale is energizing.

Speaker 2:

That's the energizing. And so for nines, that falling asleep to themselves, that diffusing that energy, that putting their attention towards other things, that kind of allows them to stay asleep to themselves, and often, when I first work with nines and breathwork, they'll fall asleep. And it's interesting because it's an active. This kind of the kind of breathwork I teach is an active meditation. You're actively breathing for 25 minutes, all you know, all through the mouth. So it's an energizing. It's gentle as it moves things through, but it's active, it's an active meditation. You have to be present.

Speaker 1:

You have to be present with it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so to to be able. I mean, it just shows the power of the falling asleep to themselves of the nine, like that pull is so strong. And when we put our mind aside and we start to tune into some of the things we're holding in our body that can be confronting, because you're like, oh wow, you know, and things start to come up and move through, people cry. They'll be like, oh, I feel angry, I don't know what it is. And a lot of times it's the energy we're holding and we don't even have to know what we're clearing. It's just like your body's going oh, this is safe, we can offload some of these things and get rid of some of these things. And sometimes you do, sometimes you're like, oh wow, I'm just processing that grief.

Speaker 2:

And if you think about it, the breath is in the belly where we hold a lot of our survival fears, our safety, our sexuality can all be living in there, so we can all have stuff that we're holding onto that. And then it goes through your diaphragm up to your heart space and that's your will and your receptivity to love, and so it's. It's a really beautiful receptivity to love, and so it's. It's a really beautiful activity to do, to engage in, because you're kind of clearing all of that and then purifying it through your heart space and opening up and you can just, you know, release that and then, when you're done, you feel you know you have 10 minutes to rest and it's very relaxing, it's very, very nice.

Speaker 2:

And I have a sixth client that I work with a lot and she's like my mind is so quiet when I'm done. It's like, yeah, it gives you, it gives you a nice pause. And for her to, you know, be able to turn off her mind for a little bit and the head types is a little bit hard, because you're saying, set your dominant center aside it's a little bit hard because you're saying set your dominant center aside, so yeah, so I um picked on, picked up on the correlation.

Speaker 1:

Right, there's a correlation of the, the heruvian triad yeah, wait a minute, I I lost it too. I know Stands and the either inhibiting of the inhale or the exhale. Yeah, there's a connection there between. That might be a simple way for people to remember that if, if you're moving towards, you're inhibiting your exhale right and inhale and inhale.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

If you're moving away, you're inhibiting your exhale and if you're Sorry, away is inhale yeah, away is inhale, yeah. And if you're withdrawing, you're withholding your exhale, inhibiting your exhale.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So the moving against is your exhale. So if you think of, like, think of puffing up your chest and you're kind of moving against, you're not taking the time to exhale. So the three, the seven and eight this is so helpful.

Speaker 1:

I dabble a little bit into breath work just because I have, you know, my background in yoga and stuff. I do dabble with it a little bit with some of my clients who are open to that, but, yeah, it's so helpful. So thank you for breaking it down so simply.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, hopefully, hopefully, I made it more simple. I get you know, I got it. Okay, good, good, good, yeah, yeah, no, it's really, it's really been a powerful piece. And another, another important thing about breathwork.

Speaker 2:

So, you know, we're working to clear those stagnant, stuck energies, but also another piece that ties in really well with the Enneagram we're working on trying to be present, we're working on trying to embody our essence, who we truly are, and when we can clear out some of that stuck, sticky energy you want to call it that it it's the static in our signal, and so, if we can clear the static out of our signal, we can tune in to who we are, we can tune in to how it feels to be us and our bodies, and then you start to expand your capacity.

Speaker 2:

So, when all this input we're living in a really noisy, chaotic time right now all this input comes in, when you have this expanded capacity, that you recognize your own energy and you recognize how it feels to be in alignment with your true self, you can go oh, not mine, not mine, oh, that's mine, oh, that's okay. And so it just it's bringing another center of wisdom online to help us navigate. So not only does it. It free you up in a lot of ways. It hones your own personal radio station Like you start to be able to tune into it and go, oh, am I? Am I tuned into my channel, or am I a little bit off? And so it's. It's a really beautiful way to bring that piece online, and so I really, really appreciate that.

Speaker 1:

All about paying attention, like the first. We cannot, we cannot stress this enough. The first step, yeah to awareness is paying attention. You have to pay attention, yep, to what is going on inside of you. Yeah, you're thinking what you're feeling, what you're doing, and just observing it. Like, just observe, you don't have to do anything about it at first. Yeah, just want to observe it and start taking some notes about what you are observing, about who you are and how you operate and what. Who are you bringing to this conversation? Who are you bringing to that conversation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and learning more about the Enneagram is such a powerful tool to help with that.

Speaker 1:

Learning more about the Enneagram is such a powerful tool to help with that because, because it it brings to the surface our blind spots, the things that we don't even know are there. Yeah, like you know, like for us, with with Envy. It might sound so simple, but like I think I, I knew, I compared, but I didn't know, I compared all the time. Yes, like it was, it was. Yeah, right, it's like, oh, that's a blind spot, like how much, how much, and the and the comparing. I wouldn't even have necessarily seeded it like that, but it's a, it's a trying to prove worth and value. I guess, compare myself to this thing over here or this person to establish my own worth and value, right and as a self-preservation, for I think it was trickier to spot because you I can tend to use.

Speaker 2:

I would use it for motivation, like oh Wendy's doing. I should do, I could do that. That's a great idea. I think I'll work on that. So it's that leads to that over-efforting, that over-preparation, because you're trying to fill in the missing piece, whatever's missing, that's, that's the thing that I'm going to prove my worth in whatever way because it's not.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I'm so mad and jealous of her. There's not that, that competition for other fours, yeah. There's not as much competition which is yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So it can seem a little that was the harder thing for me to spot, you know. But but there I was in Beijing going, wow, so-and-so has really great beautiful Chinese, and they're actually can go to the store and get the thing that they wanted on the first try, instead of having to pantomime, draw a picture and do all the things and I. But instead of being like, oh, I'll be, like, I'll just study harder, I'll just work harder, you know, like that, just that.

Speaker 1:

It's really hard to prove worth and value, yeah, and you never get there. Never, ever get there.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 1:

What do you love most about being a type school? Well, I do. There's a lot of good. Like you said, we don't want to totally get rid of personality. It's part of who we are as humans and it serves a purpose, and there is some strengths in that right. Absolutely, absolutely. What do you, what do you, courtney, love most about being a type four?

Speaker 2:

Well, I, one of the things that I've noticed and it's present my entire life, I noticed it my entire life is that searching and finding meaning and beauty in, in everything, and even even at times where I can laugh to myself and go well, this is going to be a hard assignment, because it seems like it's hard and but I can always like, oh, but there's that piece that is really meaningful and it's not. The beauty Isn't like the happiness, it's not like putting a happy thing on it, because my favorite emotion is laughing and crying at the same time, like that's the best, like the combination plate I enjoy. But that feeling of, of finding the patterns and the connection and and I guess it, as our personality does, it points back to the truth of us, which is a four. We have connection to original source. We have never been disconnected. Yes, we have holy origin and we are complete and whole.

Speaker 2:

And so, to be able to spot that, or to see, when I was little I had my room, my mom, let us pick out our wallpaper and I had this red wallpaper that was just very fabulous. I was a big fan of Sharon Bob Mackey as a little kid, so you can imagine what it was, and it was tasteful. My mom didn't you know. She said you can look in these books, and my sister had this Kelly Green wallpaper. And so I remember noticing, oh, in the daytime or in certain moods, when I go in her room, I feel a certain way and this environment makes me feel a certain way, or matches how I'm feeling. And oh, when it's nighttime or it's Indian summer, I really like my red room and that really.

Speaker 2:

And so I have the conscious memory of saying, when I grow up, I'm going to have a room for every mood and every color and I can just and I was like magical thinking, here it is. But it made so much sense to me and and even when I, you know, had some time where I help people with their houses and do design stuff and talking, and I'll say, well, how do you want to feel in that space? Oh, I don't know what to do, and they're like what do you mean? And I'm like that is the first question, that is always the first question what do you mean?

Speaker 2:

you don't know, and if you don't feel whatever way you want to feel, you can change that, you know. And so, and that is the you know, we are looking for that missing piece. But in a way it makes me a great editor. It makes me, you know, I can go into a space and go okay, well, this is working. But we need some light here, we need some flow here. This energetically doesn't quite feel, the flow isn't quite right. And so to see that that's part of my gifting and it is in service of bringing things back to wholeness, you know, and being able to see the beauty, Like I feel, like it's easy for me to see the beauty in people and and to you know, see their gifts a lot of times when they can't see it themselves, and reflect that and mirror that to them.

Speaker 1:

Or they're naturally aesthetically attuned Like. We're attuned to the aesthetic and it is about like how it makes us feel. Us feel like we get a sense, a feeling, sense when we walk into a space about what's working and what's being and and it's just nurturing me, it's right, and so we'll spend a lot of time trying to make our home just right so that we feel a certain way in our home and yeah yeah, there's a lot of that and and yeah, but, and it's about beauty, and it's almost like beauty just jumps out at us like yes, you don't have to go searching for it, it's just there and we see.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we see it in everything, even the things that people would look at and and maybe think are gross or bad or like.

Speaker 2:

so in high school we were dissecting cow eyeballs, okay, and you know little squeamish doing it. But when you open the cow eyeball, inside the sclera I think it's called the sclera there is an opalescent. It looks like beautiful, like a mother of pearl opalescent coating. That looks like magic. I mean it just looked and I was like almost tearful. I was like what have we uncovered, this beauty? It was like it felt like a divine wink of like hey, no one even sees this. And look what I have deposited inside this cow eyeball. And it was so beautiful and I was so moved. I kept trying to share it with my friends and they were like, either gross, I'm also finished dissecting the eyeball. I'm like, no, can we celebrate the opalescence? That is the thing, but it is, and those things tickle me. I just get so tickled by that to see those. You know, it just feels like oh, that connection, oh that source, like.

Speaker 2:

And I always say someone asked me one time like how do you know? You seem, you seem to be someone of strong faith, how do you know that that the divine or God is even real? And I said, well, you know, part of that is faith. You know you have to take that step out. But we could live in a black and white, silent world with no laughter and no music. And we don't. We live in this uproarious, technicolor world full of laughter and music. Doesn't mean there aren't other things, you know. We have. It's all all. I like the full palette of colors, I like all the things, but we wouldn't even know the difference. And someone out there thought that it would be joyful, thought that it would be nurturing, thought that it would be an expression of love I feel to let us be in this colorful world makes me when you are describing it like that.

Speaker 1:

It makes me think of the great divorce by cs lewis. I don't know if you've ever read that. Yeah, that it depicts that perfectly. Yeah, in that book the great divorce, cs lewis, that what you just described is is depicted beautifully, yeah, and um, yeah, I agree, I agree. And fours have that gift of calling out beauty, yeah, and naming it and inviting other people to experience it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, with us, yeah, yeah. And opening that aperture yeah, we have it, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, we are kind of coming to the end of our time. I wish we could talk forever. I know, I know, I know Always. Oh yeah, so much more to talk about. I'm going to have to have you on again, yeah. I love that. I want to tell people about where they can find you, they can follow you, they can learn information about you, and I'll also put your links in the show notes. But yeah, just share people about where they can find you.

Speaker 2:

So the main place is my website and it's my name, so Courtney Eller Williams, and it's no spaces in between, and I do monthly breathwork groups, either online or in person, if you're in the New York area, but the virtual ones are on Zoom and you don't have to breathe before. I always demonstrate the technique and those are straight breathwork. But then I also do appointments that are enneagram, somatic enneagram and breathwork appointments. If anybody wants to explore that, that's it. That's a really great way to start it. And then I do, you know, just the coaching and the typing and all that fun stuff, like you do. That's, I mean, every day. Just so fun to help people. When you, when you see that they get that oh, here's their specific growth path map that they, you know that they can use to actually understand and learn more about themselves, is just really, really fun.

Speaker 1:

So and all of that's on your website. It's all on my website, yes, and about where they can schedule or sign up. Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yep, all of that is there I'm. I do have an Instagram account, but I'm website. Yep, all of that is there. I'm. I do have an Instagram account, but I'm. I think I've posted a 52 times the total of the account history, so all the information is on my website, so yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, this has been such a lovely conversation, courtney, I just love you so much.

Speaker 2:

I love you so much. I'm so grateful. I mean the first time we met I was like, oh grateful.

Speaker 1:

I mean the first time we met I was like, oh yeah there's a there's a new person for me here, I know, right, yeah, gravitated together and yeah and haven't really looked back and I'm just so appreciated your wisdom and your friendship and my the permission you've given me to call you anytime.

Speaker 2:

I'm having a four moment Right back at you, for sure, I'm like.

Speaker 1:

I'm all up in my fourness right now. I need some help.

Speaker 2:

Yep, yep, is it me or is it? Yes, it is you, and yes, it is your fourness, and yes, it's okay. Yep, all of those things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, thank you so much. Thank you, and we'll talk to you soon and I'll have you on again because we have a lot more to explore Yep, all of those things. Yeah Well, thank you so much. Thank you, talk to you soon and I'll have you on again, because we have a lot more to explore.

Speaker 2:

I would love that, yeah, thank you so much.