Your Enneagram Friend
Your Enneagram Friend podcast is where engaging, casual, and irresistibly fun conversations meet deep, thought-provoking discussions about the Enneagram.
In each episode, I invite my "friends" to dive into the fascinating world of the Enneagram with me, exploring how this ancient tool illuminates our personalities, strengthens our relationships, and guides us on the path to personal growth. Whether you're an Enneagram expert or just curious about what your type might mean for you, there's a place for you here.
So, grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and let's start the journey of discovery together. Welcome, friends, to a space where the Enneagram doesn't just inspire us—it connects us.
Hosted by Wendy Busby, Enneagram Life + Relationship Coach
Your Enneagram Friend
Navigating Life as an Enneagram Four
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In our conversation, we unravel the complexities of Enneagram Type Four subtypes—self-preservation, social, and sexual fours—each with its unique challenges and behaviors. Personal anecdotes bring these subtypes to life, emphasizing the importance of accurate typing and confronting one's shadow sides. The discussion offers practical insights into the emotional depth of Type Fours, from the pride in self-sufficiency to the quest for validation and connection. These revelations can help you better understand yourself or the Type Fours in your life, enhancing personal growth and relational dynamics.
We also dive into the emotional landscape of Type Four relationships, where the need for validation and understanding often takes center stage. Hans and Wendy share candid stories about how childhood experiences shape their identity and the impact of unmet emotional needs. By exploring the nuances of over-explaining and the necessity of feeling seen, this episode provides a rich tapestry of experiences and tips on navigating relationships as a Type Four. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or a seasoned enthusiast, this episode offers valuable wisdom and a deeper connection to our Enneagram community.
To learn more about Hans here are the links!
Enneagram Website: https://enneagramgrowthjourneys.com/
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Hey everyone, welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where I have engaging and thought-provoking conversations with my friends about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to know yourself better. Thank you for listening. I appreciate it so much Today on the show. I am so excited to have my friend Hans. He's a type four like me, so this is sure to be an interesting and deep conversation. Hey, hans.
Speaker 2:Hi Wendy. Thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really excited to be talking to you about all things.
Speaker 1:four yes, I love it, but let's get into it. Tell me a little bit about who is Hans. You know a little bit about your background, maybe where you're from and what you do.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, as you may gather from my accent, I'm German, but I have been living in the UK, in London, for the last 25 years. Just didn't manage to get rid of my accent. I'm German, but I have been living in the UK, in London, for the last 25 years, just didn't manage to get rid of my accent, unfortunately. I started my career as a lawyer for a big city firm and then in the bank, until I had kind of a burnout that made me re-evaluate my life and connect to what I really want and there's a link to my type four journey as well and I started, I retrained, to be a coach and I now am a career life executive coach, helping people be more effective in living the life that they want, whether that's in their professional or personal life.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so great. I knew that you lived in London and I knew that you were from Germany, but I didn't know that you have lived in London that long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a very long time. It's now more than half of my life.
Speaker 1:So what do you love most about living in London?
Speaker 2:It's just a very cosmopolitan place. Germany seems provincial in comparison to it. There is so much history, trade, nightlife, and you know, whatever you like, it will come to London, whether it is a particular Enneagram teacher or a pop artist. You just need to wait, it will pass through London at one point and I love that.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Yes, I just want to interject. So Hans and I met online and we both were doing the CP professional Enneagram certification and just kind of interacted in some of the online work that we were doing in relation to that. And you were always, whenever you came up to speak or whatever, you were always just so vibrant and always had such great questions. So did you do your in-person retreats and stuff? Did you do the ones that they bring to London?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did all of them. I think there are about five, and I did them all in London and I'm so grateful that I could do it in London, because you know it's quite an effort to go to the US for that, there's a cost to it and I'd rather spend my holidays on proper holidays. So it was great to do all of this in London.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really cool. I have only done two. I've not been able to get into the third one. It keeps filling up too fast.
Speaker 2:I mean, they're amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I am kind of keeping my eyes open. If they open up another one in London next year, I might jump on that one. So if I do, we'll have to grab a bite to eat or something.
Speaker 2:Please yes.
Speaker 1:I would love that. Okay, so let's jump into the Enneagram. When did you first learn about the Enneagram?
Speaker 2:That was about 10 years ago. I went to a coach training in California by a guy called Rich Litvin who does events for coaches to help them on the business side, and he talked about the Enneagram and that he was a type three and there were lots of other people there, actually lots of type threes and I just got curious what that was. And when I went home or to my hotel room I Googled it, found out about it and just took a test. I was very lucky that I got to Integrative 9 immediately. They do just beautiful tests and very high accuracy rate.
Speaker 2:And when I read my report although I was mistyped and we'll probably get to this later I was just amazed by the depth of information. I was just amazed by the depth of information and I was already a coach and I could see how it would have both application for my own personal growth and support my clients, because there's just a wealth of material that you can unravel in a coaching conversation. So I decided I really need to learn this, I need to learn this, I need to understand this, and that's when I got my first certification with Integrative 9. Then I did their Level 2, which is applying it to teams. And then I did all the CP Enneagram, self-mastery and the professional certification which goes even much deeper, and there's still more to discover.
Speaker 1:I know it never quits to reveal itself in new ways, that's right, yeah, it never ceases to reveal itself.
Speaker 1:I should say, yeah, that's so true what you say about it being so rich, right, that is so beautifully said. I would say that that's a similar experience to me. When I first discovered it was like, wow, what is this? I have to learn what this is about and understanding more about type four now and this deep need for understanding right, not only being understood by others, but I think we have a deep need to understand ourselves, and that the Enneagram is a beautiful tool that gives that deep, rich kind of understanding. And I felt so much freer to be okay, I guess would be a good way to say it from just even learning the surfacy things about the Enneagram. Okay, so you alluded to and I said that you're a type four. So what was your initial reaction? Well, first tell me what were you mistyped as?
Speaker 2:So what was your initial reaction? Well, first tell me what were you mistyped as Type 1. Okay, and for a few years I thought it was a type 1. And type 1s often get confused with a self-preservation type 4. Yes, each type has three subtypes and there's always one which is called the countertype, as you know. That goes against the normal pattern and can look quite different.
Speaker 2:And when I read the type one report, actually everything resonated wanting to be perfect, trying to avoid criticism, the frustration, not feeling good enough, and these are things that the type four shares with the one. It just comes from a different place. And I have actually, up to date, no test that tested me as a type four. I got this manually from Beatrice Chestnut. What these tests can't really measure is if you have interjected another type, which was the case in my case. Type four is something interjection, which is copying a personality from somebody else.
Speaker 2:My father was a type one, a judge. There was lots of judging and I was a very melancholic type four child until I shapeshifted into what society expects me to be and when I was well, when Beatrice Chestnut, around New Paris, offered me that I might be a four, that was initially really hard, but then also a relief, realizing this type one fascist that I have been suffering from isn't me, it's my father, yes, and I can let go of this now and pay some attention to this type four boy who has been neglected for far too long and needs some attention now.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, hans, I mean that's such a beautiful story. I know beautiful might not be the best word for that. I mean that's such a beautiful story. I know beautiful might not be the best word for that, but that's what came to mind. This, the how, force, interject, right, and that's kind of a graduated concept. So do you want to briefly just explain what you mean by interject?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, all type fours have this kind of pattern. That is a little bit like a Hoover. I see something and I bring that back to me, like I see suffering, I need to have the suffering, I need something beautiful, I want that, and that can be quite an overload. And in particular, for the counter type, the self-preservation type, there is a pattern of I don't really think I'm a four, I'm different. Look, I'm the good boy or girl, look how strong I am, I don't make a fuss about myself.
Speaker 2:Type fours are regarded as overly emotional. Well, the self-preservation four takes almost pride in I'm not like this, I can hold it all together. I'm so strong, I don't really make a fuss about myself. It gets a little bit masochistic, this holding on, and that made it so difficult for me to see that I'm a type four. Indeed, I mean, this is kind of a funny aspect of it. When I was already teaching or helping my clients with the Enneagram and I was admittedly at the beginning I always said the politically correct thing about the types, that all types are equal, none of them are worse than the others. But in my mind I always thought, except for the fours, they're a little bit weird and I can't really resonate. It was just so masked by my subtype and when I had this coming out, no, actually you are a type four. And then I went back looking at my life through the new lens. I understood that everything that I kind of a little bit judged in type force I do all of this myself. It was just better hidden.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's true for all types, right? When people come to realize what their type is, they're often like oh no, oh no, this is, this is. I don't want this. This is not good, Right, and there's, so I could see how. Like one. Maybe you didn't type one, maybe you didn't like that a lot, but you're like okay, I can do this, Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. So but then when, when four revealed itself to you, it then highlights kind of some of those deeper, darker things that are going on and it's like ooh, yeah, okay, I guess I have to own that and be honest with myself. That that's true for me, so that I can move forward Right, that that's true for me, so that I can move forward right.
Speaker 2:And that's why accurate typing is so important. Yes, accurate typing and then really understanding it, beyond the superficial type descriptions that we sometimes read, because, although we want to acknowledge the positives, we don't really want people to fall too much in love with their personality, like, oh, look how creative I am. Or type seven, look how visionary I am. If we're at that level, we don't really understand the shadow sides. And if you want to grow, we need to understand this. And if it feels uncomfortable, then you're really on the spot.
Speaker 1:Yes, headed in the right direction. Okay, so you've already alluded to the self-preservation for being the counter type. Can you, just for the sake of our listeners, so that we can give them a greater understanding of really what we're talking about here, can you also tell us about the social four and the sexual four, or one-to-one can be called that?
Speaker 2:Well, maybe to take one step back. So the self-preservation type is one that tends to withdraw very quickly. If I don't get what I want, I go back into my cave and I suffer on my own. I hold it all on and I'm kind of proud that I'm independent. I'm saying that because the other types are quite different.
Speaker 2:If you have the social type, the social four actually wants to be seen with their suffering, maybe not in a professional context but otherwise, because they are, as in the name, social. Their survival instinct is I need to connect to the tribe and I need to establish myself in the tribe. They also want to be seen and accepted with their suffering by their tribe. I have one very close social four friend and he often tells me things like oh yeah, and I talked to Peter and he told me he could really see how bad I am feeling and it was almost a little bit of pride and satisfaction that the other person could acknowledge it. And so they're engaging with the suffering more openly and sometimes make it a little bit bigger than it needs to be.
Speaker 2:And then we have the sexual, or some schools call it one-to-one. That is a type that is more active and pursuing to get what they want. All type fours think something is missing and the sexual one goes out there to attract and compete and fight for what they want. Um, and they have a particular way of dealing with the suffering that all type fours experience, and that is to turn it into anger, because anger just feels easier to endure than suffering and the anger is often directed at other people. So they can be quite feisty in relationships.
Speaker 2:And I recently heard a podcast by a sexual four and it was quite moving how honest she was. She said well, it can be so overwhelming, this desire to assert myself and to compete, that it's almost like I want to hurt the other person, even if it's somebody I love. And that's obviously just a moment in the heat and then it goes away. But it's a very different energy of what the type four, the self-preservation four, has, which is more okay. I don't have what I want, so I withdraw. I don't stay in conflict as long Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, For you. Would that resonate with how you experience it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very much. So I definitely withdraw if I'm feeling anything, because I don't want others to suffer on my behalf, right? So there's this way of like. Well, I don't want others to suffer on my behalf, right? So there's this way of like well, I don't want you to suffer, so I'm going to hide my suffering, right?
Speaker 1:I don't want to burden you with my suffering. So I'm going to hide it and to go back to that family of origin. Dynamic of the message was strong emotions are not welcome, Like no emotions, like not even real happiness was welcome. So I learned how to hide all kinds of emotions, even what we would label positive emotions, and so I became very stoic and just very strong, right, and it's like when I was growing up people would describe me as oh, you're so easy, You're so easy. It doesn't seem like you need very much. And inside I'm just like, oh my gosh, if you only knew how much I need to connect. I need relationship, I need someone to come and tell me that I'm worthy and that I'm OK and that you know my life matters, and and so it is. It's a big withdrawal, a big withdrawal in the self-preservation.
Speaker 1:So what's interesting, hans, is that um about six months ago so um one of my children. He just turned 22. Uh, we discovered that he's a sexual four. Oh wow. Yeah, and so I. I mean, you know, when I first learned about the Enneagram I thought, oh gosh, he must be an eight Right, and so that sexual four and eight can get missed, that's a big miss type Just because of the anger and sort of this kind of strength of presence, right.
Speaker 1:So there's this kind of big strength of presence and the more that I get to know other sexual fours, they have a strong presence about them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's been kind of interesting. But it's as he's starting to kind of navigate adulthood and navigate work life, he often gets really frustrated with the people he's working with and he's like they're all stupid, Like what's wrong with them. There's, and it's like, oh, wait a minute, Like that is, you know this, the superiority complex that often comes with that sexual four. And then, and then there's lots of anger, right, Lots of anger at the how things are not how he wants them to be. And so it's been interesting and I'm so grateful to have this language of the Enneagram to understand what's happening with the people I care about in a deeper, richer, more profound way.
Speaker 2:I care about in a deeper, richer, more profound way, and I wish I've had that knowledge when I was a young man, a mother who introduced me to this, because if we don't have the knowledge that the Enneagram gives us and obviously there are other models also that can give us something similar it's almost like things happen to us and we don't understand it. And the anagram helped me. Well, it's not quite that. Since that's happened to me, I have a part in that, the narrative that I create, the push and pull of the four. There are lots of things that I wish I had understood early in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what about your own deficiency story? Right? So the deficiency narrative of the four? What does that sound like for you?
Speaker 2:if you feel comfortable sharing, yeah, I mean, of course I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I hadn't posed that question to you before. So if you don't want to answer, it's okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, obviously I'm a four and I'm also an SP4, so masochistic, so I can totally lean into it. But it is very uncomfortable for us because we also have the kind of shame we want to be seen, but we're also, in a way, ashamed to be really seen for who we are. It's this kind of paradox, so how the deficiency is. Basically, there is a constant radar looking outside of me for things that I think I should have or be, whether it is people who are more attractive or who are more successful, who have better relationships. And the thing with the four is it's one thing to acknowledge that they have something that we don't have, but we make it very personal the fact that somebody else has more success is a statement about myself, which is, of course, not true, but that's the really harsh distortion that type 4s do so because I don't have that.
Speaker 2:I don't have that because there's something wrong with me, and this goes back to my childhood. Even as a 7-year-old boy, I already thought I was overweight. I've got this picture of me and a boy who I admired as being the old and really grown-up boy, and we were both in speedos next to each other, and in those days I felt so, so fat against him and he's so much more muscled. When I now look at the picture, I can't actually see the difference. He's so much more muscle.
Speaker 2:When I now look at the picture, I can't actually see the difference, that kind of distortion that we create and that we suffer from all life. And it's really, really hard not to do like any anagram had done. The ego thinks no, no, no, we need to continue to do this. And the type four ego does it because it believes the only way to get what you really want is to keep craving, keep looking, keep comparing, keep, um, putting you down so that you put in the extra effort to eventually get there. And it's a very cruel game which, of course, doesn't give us the life experience we really want.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is a cruel game and it's like we never reach our own standards, because as soon as we start to reach the standard, we're like, oh, we got to raise the bar higher, to keep working so hard to reach this thing that we think will make us better, but it's actually. It never is satisfying. There's like the the way Russ Hudson says the four is has chronic disappointment. Have you heard him say that? You know, it's like chronic syndrome where nothing is ever good enough, including ourselves, most, mostly ourselves.
Speaker 2:And you see, here again there's a parallel to the type one, which made me think I'm a type one, but it's a little bit different. For the type one it's indeed, yeah, it could have been better. For the type four it's a little bit different. I devalue what I have. I want this thing. Then I have it, and then oh, but is that really it? No, I think it's that thing externally again. So it's not even about I want it to be even better. It's about, no, actually I devalue it and that's so cruel. And one of the type four practices that I'm cultivating to embrace is being more grateful for what is, and it's about shifting the focus away from that external thing to all the beautiful things that are in my life.
Speaker 1:Yes, gratitude is such a powerful practice for type fours Like it's one that should be done constantly but, somehow every time I say that I'm going to do that and I'll do it for a while and then I'll forget. I'll forget I'm supposed to be grateful for all the good things, because they sometimes seem so hard to find. You know, the good things of my life, the good things about me, they seem hard to locate at times.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I don't think that people understand that, how much effort that takes for a four especially well, for all fours to like identify what is good about them. Identify what is good about them, but then to own it right. It's like the good parts get put into the shadow I'm sure you've heard Uranio say that before and it's like oh, let the shadow, those good elements that you've pushed away, come forward, because that's where the beauty of who you are is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what plays into that is this kind of desire to be special, which took me ages to really acknowledge. I didn't really think I wanted to be special, but I can see it now and the reason why I say that plays in is everything that we have that's kind of a hedonistic adjustment. It is no longer special, like if I have this dream house after a while it is no longer special. So there is this constant okay, I need to look for something else that gives me that special thing.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yeah, I love the way you said that. Okay, so I want to go backwards and ask you this question again what was your initial reaction to learning that you were a type four? Just your very, if you can think back like, oh, I've thought I was a one. All this time I've been presented with the fact that I am type four. What was your initial thought or feeling that you can remember, if you can remember?
Speaker 2:It was no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was very defensive because, as I said, I didn't really like type fours or I found it difficult, and also I was already using the Enneagram and I thought, oh my God, I can't be mistyped, I'm an Enneagram practitioner and that made me this kind of shame thing kicked in, oh my God. And I didn't even get my own type right, which in the end, none of my clients really cared about it. I wasn't quite as important as I thought in that moment, right? So so there was this kind of almost panicking no, no, no, this can't be true. But I mean, they were uranium bear trees and I and I really value them and respect them. So I sat down in the evening. They told me think about who you were as a child before you got this kind of professional layer that may have distorted it. And I remember that even as a child I was already quite melancholic. I remember all the diaries that are written in overly dramatic, long passages of cursing love and everything Right. Some ridiculous things I've done, like singing a love song outside a girl's window with a guitar completely over the top, or spending my nights sitting in the harbor in a dramatic position in Hamburg, my hometown, listening to Wagner music, writing my diary. Everything was very emotional.
Speaker 2:I wrote a novel as a teenager and several short stories, but here is something, yeah, and what then happened is nobody really wanted to see that. And I remember this one moment where I had this novel, and that was before computers. Everything was typed, done with a typewriter 300 pages, narrow writing and you know correcting really difficult. I spent months on it and I presented it to my parents and was so scared of showing it to them. My father only read the first page and corrected a grammar mistake and my mother never read it. So for type four not to be seen was there, because it meant a lot for me.
Speaker 2:That was quite a big thing and I never appreciated this. And I also never appreciated how unusual it's actually for parents that they didn't have the slightest interest in reading. Was their child created? I mean, such a bizarre thing if you think about it, but for me it was just normal. And and then I had another try, submitting short stories to a magazine, and I was rejected and I decided, okay, I close all of this and the sensible thing, become a lawyer. And that's when all of this kind of got forgotten and I became this type one version.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's. That's such an interesting story and insight into the child part of being four. Right, this need to be seen and this need to be to have this positive mirroring of like oh you, we look at all these good things about you, you're so, you're special, you're creative Like that's what children need, right To have, like a positive self image of themselves. And when you're not receiving that, I don't think that people understand how damaging that is to a four especially.
Speaker 1:I have a similar experience growing up. I didn't have anyone interested in necessities met, but there was no emotional care, there was no nurturing, and my biological father left when I was two years old with no, with no throughout my whole life up to now, no explanation of why. And so I internalized that like there's something wrong with me If the person who is put on this earth that's supposed to love you your parents, right doesn't even want me. What's wrong with me? I'm unlovable, like to my core, right. I really, really, really felt that and carried that with me until I started therapy about well, about eight years ago now. I really thought like wow, I am, I am not worthy of love because of this experience, right. And so then my mother was unable to nurture, right, she just didn't have that and she did her best, right, she did what she knew. But my little four part, my little fourness, like needed someone to say you know, you're special and I didn't have that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I hear you when you say like my mom and dad didn't like I worked so hard on this book. I efforted over it so hard and they didn't care.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think they just thought well, I'm very self-sufficient.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like you said, that other people just assume you're fine and they probably say, oh, he always plays alone in his bedroom, he doesn't really need much. Yep, he stays alone in his bedroom, he doesn't really need much, and I don't know whether that is true for all fours or counter fours. I probably also don't always make it easy because I'm not always coming forward. I did with the book, but I don't often do it. It's almost like I want people to come to me, or even now in conversations, I always listen very well. People love me to listen and sometimes I would like them to ask something about me, but they don't because, um, I probably don't show up as much in conversations and asserting myself and I'm more the passive listener yeah, yeah, there is this sense of like not asking for what we need but, but I wonder like, well, if we didn't, if we didn't have someone inviting us to ask for what we needed, like how much did that impact?
Speaker 1:you know this, this curiosity of like oh well, who are you, what do you need, what are you interested in? Let me attune to that, right.
Speaker 1:As parents should attune, and so this is kind of a really sad story. But, like when I started going to therapy and I I kind of had first started to learn about the Enneagram, I started to confront my mother about some things of like I need some information here, like who am I, where do I come from, what's my story, you know? And she was very resistant to that and she said to me I said I've had these questions you know my whole life, and she goes well, if you wanted to know something, you should have asked. And I said well, how was I supposed to know that at four years old? Right?
Speaker 1:And then, like you said, we develop these patterns for our own kind of safety and well-being. Like I'm just going to withdraw, I'm going to suffer in silence, because that's what makes me feel safe, and the people around me can't handle my strong emotions. And the people around me can't handle my strong emotions, so I've got to keep them hidden inside. And you know, so it's like even as an adult, in trying to invite those conversations, there was resistance, and so the answers never came and I had to then go through that process of I'm never going to receive these answers. So then what do I do with that?
Speaker 2:you know, I don't want it to keep hindering me in the same way it's hindered me up till now, you know and maybe for the benefit of the listeners, what we're talking about is very typical for the self-preservation type falls because the others are much more confident and asserting themselves, asking and sharing. It's our self-preservation, our particular growth journey, not to do this.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Not to suffer in silence, but to really bring ourselves in and ask for the things that we want.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up, because for a minute I forgot we had listeners. I'm just talking to you and I'm like, oh wait a minute. This is actually. I'm glad you said that. That's hilarious. I'm forgetting my own work here for getting my own work here, okay. So let's lighten things up a little bit. So imagine that you're meeting someone and you're just getting to know them and you want to tell them that you're a type four and you kind of want to describe what that means. How would you introduce yourself or that this part of yourself is, oh, I'm an Enneagram type four to someone that you're just meeting?
Speaker 2:Well, the thing is as a type four I don't do light things- I don't fall in with the proper thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would probably say something along the lines that type four are one of the three heart types, which means that they're very much using the heart and their emotions and they identify themselves very much with their emotions and over-identify themselves with their emotions, I am what I feel and they're driven by a desire to be special and they're out on the look for what is missing and trying to bring those things into their life to make them complete, which ends up in a wild goose chase for that unattainable thing that they think if I only had that thing then I would be okay, right, only had that thing, then I would be okay, right. And I would probably also mention that, um, that they're really interested in deep, um life experiences. Um, they don't do shallow, they want to have authentic deep um. Um, what is the processing of feelings? Deep conversations, there's a value into depth that goes like a thread through their life.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yes, that's all true and it can be really hard, right, to start relationships, like I have found for myself because of that, like I've had to pay attention to my intensity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:When I'm first meeting someone, because it can be really off-putting, you know, and it's like it's okay to slow down and talk about light things or things that don't seem like they're all that important, but to build trust and to build, you know, some rhythm in the relationship and then kind of slowly enter into the depths and like the people that I want to get to know deeper, like if I I'll say, like this is something that's really important to me is having deep conversations and really talking about things that I find meaningful.
Speaker 1:And what I have found is that some people are able to do that and some people are just not, and that's OK. And so I've learned kind of how to categorize some relationships of like, oh, this relationship, I want to be in this, I want to have a relationship with this person, but in order to do that, I have to be OK with that. This relationship is going to be on the surface, and that's OK because I really like this person. And then to invest in those relationships that do allow for the deeper connection, whereas before I would have been like, oh, I don't, like I'm not gonna spend any time with that person because they don't actually really care enough to get to know me. Like that was the story I would tell myself. Like if they cared enough to get to know me Like that was the story I would tell myself, like if they cared enough to get to know me, they would want to go deeper. And what I have found is that some people that's just not for them and that's 100% okay.
Speaker 2:And maybe we can even go a step further. That's exactly what we need as four, because sometimes we need the counter piece that keeps it a little bit light, um, as opposed to collude with us in that's a great word so a good counter piece for type four is a type seven yes, I know, and I've said so many times like I love, I love sevens.
Speaker 1:If I could be a seven, I wish I could. But they have their own stuff too right Every type has their stuff and yeah, but but embracing lightness, not having to be so serious all the time, it's so such a good practice but it's hard. I find that really hard to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Okay. So another big aspect about type fours and I would say it's maybe the biggest is feeling understooding to feel understood. So what happens when you feel misunderstood? Could you talk a little bit about this part of fours needing to be understood, Kind of what happens when they feel misunderstood and how that is for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is again subtype specific, as in self-preservation, for it is withdrawing, and that can happen very quickly, not even sometimes giving people enough chance. It's this immediate sense no, I'm not being heard, I'm not being seen. It's very easy for me to disconnect too quickly if I don't manage that. I'm getting better at stopping myself Because it feels safer not to even try, not to expose myself to a relationship where I'm not seen or where my values aren't shared. So it's kind of a preemptive strike of withdrawing quickly.
Speaker 1:And do you experience because for me, I often experience trying to over-explain in the pursuit of being understood Does that happen with you?
Speaker 2:I have to think about that. I'm not quite sure. I mean, sometimes it's not quite the same, but sometimes something really silly that I find difficult is, let's say, you and I go to see a musical and for for me it's really deep and psychological, and you just say, oh, this was a nice spectacle, that I would really think, oh, my god, and you, this is all you, that you say, and you don't really get all these layers of depth. And then I might try to explain a lot, um, which can be a little bit for the other person.
Speaker 1:Oh, sorry, um, when it comes to myself, I don't think I explained that much okay, yeah, and I I, now that you're saying it, I I find that I do that only in, like my most intimate relationships right like with my husband, if I feel misunderstood by him, I will keep trying to explain to get to the place of being understood. I wonder what is your instinctual sequence?
Speaker 2:Sexual is the last.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so that's switched. So social is last for me.
Speaker 2:So I wonder if there's any um influence from that well, what I'm curious about is when you say I explain a lot, that could be understood in two ways either that is in type four personality, or actually. No, that's a good thing for a self-preservation, for that you stay in that conversation and that you do articulate your perspective or your feelings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, perhaps Because I would say that that's probably a newer. If I think back to previous, you know where misunderstanding, misunderstanding happened. I probably did withdraw more and now it's more like okay, let's try to get to a place of understanding. It can just sometimes feel really hard to get to the place where I feel understood sometimes. So yeah, thanks for making that point. Well, we are kind of like getting towards the end of our time together. I don't want to keep you too long. That was quick.
Speaker 1:I know it went so fast, right? So you've talked a little bit about how you use the Enneagram professionally. Can you say a little bit more about that and how, if someone's interested in learning more about you as a coach and what you do professionally, how they can find you?
Speaker 2:I have two sides of my coaching business. One is specifically about Enneagram, for people who love the Enneagram and want to do deep growth work, and for that I have an Enneagram on my website, enneagramgrowthjourneyscom. And then I have a more generic life coaching, career coaching, executive coaching business under hans schumanncom, and here work with clients who come to me to work on specific issues like changing career and getting a promotion, becoming a better leader or improving their work life life balance. But I normally introduce them to the Enneagram through the back door because it helps them understand their DNA the DNA so that they're more effective in creating success in those areas of their life. I'm also attending a one-day Enneagram event in Dublin on the 19th of October if anybody is there with other practitioners where we talk about all things Enneagram and I'm on social media and on YouTube and you can find all of this on my website.
Speaker 1:Great yeah, and I'll put all that information in the show notes too, for people that want to. So do you only coach people from London?
Speaker 2:want to. So do you only coach people from London? No, I've got clients all over the world, in South America, in China, in Africa. Fantastic, luckily that's all now very easy through technology.
Speaker 1:I know right, like you, and I are talking right now. That's right, yes so awesome, all right, right now, that's right. Yes, so awesome, all right. Is there anything else that you would like to say about type four being type four? Education about type four?
Speaker 2:Well, maybe if you're in relation with the four whether it's a friend or colleague or a partner something that is important is don't immediately reframe, talk things up or offer solutions. Give them a moment to just listen and acknowledge how they feel. And once you've acknowledged that you understood it and you validate their feelings, then they're in a position to maybe talk about okay, what's another way of looking at it or would you like to talk about how we can resolve this? But it doesn't work if you get there too quickly because you just feel like you're not heard or not seen. I recently had a lunch with a type 7 friend who I really like, but after each sentence she immediately ref, reframed, trying to make a positive out of it, and for me that felt a little bit shallow and unsatisfying and not really me being able to be authentic and not you fully being heard?
Speaker 2:that's right.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah's. That's great advice, because it is so important to let the four just be, feel for a little while before you tell them not to, or, and, and well, don't ever tell them not to write something like. Don't tell a four not to feel. There has to be trust there, right? The people that I trust the most, like I can listen to them say, like maybe feelings are getting a little too big here and maybe you could pull that in a little bit. But if someone that I don't know tries to say that same thing, I will really resist it because then well, you don't know like you're, it hasn't been validated, right? That that concept of needing feelings to be validated doesn't doesn't mean I need you to feel the same way that I feel. It doesn't mean that I need you to even agree the way that I feel.
Speaker 1:I just need you to say that it's okay for me to feel the way that I feel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not dispute that. You have the right to feel that way. You may disagree with the objective thing, but don't dispute my emotions.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, gosh, I feel like we could just keep going and going and going Maybe another time.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say, yeah, gosh, I feel like we could just keep going and going, and going Maybe another time.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say I'd love to do this again sometime and I will. I'll touch base with you after so that I can get all those details so I can put it on for people to learn more about you or to contact you if they're interested in working with you.
Speaker 2:Anytime, it's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me on your show. Thanks, Hans.