Your Enneagram Friend

Discovering Type One!

• Wendy Busby • Season 1 • Episode 4

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What if you've spent years believing you were one type of person, only to discover you were something entirely different? Join me as I sit down with my dear friend Mary Shaw to uncover her Enneagram journey. Mary was first introduced to the Enneagram in the early 2000s but was mistakenly typed as a Six. This misidentification led to years of confusion until she finally sought accurate typing in 2017, only to discover she was a Type One. Mary opens up about her initial resistance and the complex process of recognizing her true self, shaped by her upbringing and internal sense of morality.

Ever wondered what it truly means to be a Type One? Mary and I unravel the nuances of this personality type, touching on everything from obsessive cleanliness to the subtle expressions of anger. We discuss the obsessive habits and perfectionistic tendencies that often accompany being a self-preservation One. Mary shares candid stories about her self-critical nature and how these traits have impacted her relationships and daily life. To deepen your understanding, we explore the three subtypes of Type Ones—self-preservation, social, and sexual (one-to-one)—and how these influence their interactions and worldview.

Join us for an insightful and heartfelt discussion that sheds light on the complexities and admirable qualities of Type One personalities.

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Speaker 1:

Hello everyone and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where I have engaging and thought-provoking conversations with my friends about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to know yourself better. I appreciate all of you who take the time to listen to this podcast. It really means a lot to me. Today, I have the great pleasure of talking to my friend, mary Shaw. As you will come to know, she is just a delight to be around and has so much wisdom and insight. I'm excited for all of you to get to know her. Hi, mary, hello Wendy, it's good to be here. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it so much. So, as we get started, I like to ask the same question, to just give my listeners a chance to get to know the person that I'm talking to. So, my friend Mary Shaw, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, how you came to the Enneagram and what it was like discovering your type.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's just a lot, isn't it? Many questions, I think it's kind of important as part of this to say I grew up in a Lutheran household, so religion was always a part of my upbringing and a little bit of part of my struggle too. I came across the Enneagram. I had one of those sort of synchronistic things where you know when you hear a new word and then suddenly it's everywhere. It was that way with the Enneagram, like it was coming from this source and this source, and which was kind of delightful. That was in the early 2000s, okay. And so I started reading about the Enneagram and I just loved it so much.

Speaker 2:

But I got mistyped by a therapist who kind of knew about the Enneagram, but I don't think he was really trained in it. He mistyped me as a six, and that was around 2006. And so that meant my trajectory just kind of went like I couldn't get traction with it. While I love the system, it just wasn't really helping me because it just didn't really speak to me until I mean, it was always in the background as I was going about my daily life, my job.

Speaker 2:

But in 2017, I just got to the point where I was like I have to know. I just have to know, and, as your listeners may realize, typing is a tricky, tricky business. So I was like am I a six? And then I had this moment of am I a five? What, what is my story? And I had a lot of feelings about oneness. And so I went to get typed and and I knew enough about the Enneagram so that, while he was asking me the questions, I was like oh no, oh no, no. And I finally said, halfway through the thing you think I'm a type one? No, I can't, that can't be true. And my resistance was partly because I have a family member who, I believe, is a type one, and I was like I am not like that. No, turns out, though, that, yes, I have a lot of that in me. This person happens to be a different subtype, but so my coming to know that I was a one was a bit horrifying initially.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that story that you just told because it's well, it's true, right, if you're, if you are on the wrong trajectory, right, if, if you mistype yourself or someone else mistypes you, it does, it's like what. This makes no sense, because there are bits and pieces of every type that we can like kind of relate to, and because you're self-preservation dominant and self-preservation dominant have a general fear, right, there's just a general fear that is associated with the self-preservation dominant dominance that can look anxious, right, it's like, well, I'm anxious, oh well, if you're anxious, then you must be a six. Exactly, it's not that simple.

Speaker 2:

That's totally simplistic view of looking at it and to riff on that for a minute, for me that religious overlay was like wait. How much of this is how I was raised, like that, that right and wrong and judgment, and then how much of that is like coming from inside of me.

Speaker 1:

Right. Yeah, you mean in relation to the one, exactly the inner experience of the one being right, right, wrong judgment, okay. So when you discovered that you were one, what was your first thought, other than what you? Just you said like no, I don't want that. But then when you, when you got to the point of acceptance that, okay, type one, what did you think next?

Speaker 2:

Well, it was interesting because I I started, you know, there was self-observation happening like wait, oh, I am seeing judgment, I am seeing some anger, and I actually went and read my journals from my younger years and, uh, it was like the one just was flying off the page at me because the anger and all of that was just kind of in my writing. So I, um, yeah, I was horrified and then, as I accepted it, it was like, oh, so this is how this works. This is actually very helpful information to have going forward.

Speaker 1:

Do you have a story from your childhood that you feel comfortable sharing? That you read in your journal, that you saw the one show up?

Speaker 2:

Well, I, I can't think of one from my journal, but just as you asked me that I remember an incident, I mean, and it's like the most minor thing, but I broke a dish while on, you know, on taking the stuff out of the dishwasher, I broke a dish and I was just like, oh my gosh, this is so bad, I'm so wrong. I just I internalized like that I was bad in that moment. So that's just an example of how deep the thinking you're so that internalizing of I'm bad.

Speaker 1:

So ones are known for having that harsh inner critic, right, right. So for you, what does your inner critic sound like?

Speaker 2:

Oh, so I need to tell you that she has a name. I gave her a name and I must explain the name. Her name is Fiona and her name is Fiona. Nothing against the Fiona's of the world. There's a British actress named Fiona Shaw and I find her very funny and so I was like I should give my inner critic the name of somebody I find amusing, so that kind of helps. So Fiona is constant, kind of like a there's a word I'm looking for here, kind of like a dictator in my brain, and we'll say do think Okay, yeah, yeah, I love that name, fiona.

Speaker 1:

I've heard you say that before, but I forgot, until you just said it again, that your inner critic's name is Fiona. It helps me.

Speaker 2:

It helps with the distance from her.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I've heard that that's helpful for all types, right, to find some way to kind of like, separate the person, this, you know, part that's personality and that's so mixed up into who we are that it can feel like it's just who we are, that there's so much identity wrapped up in personality, right, Right. And then to create some, some space and separation for some um, exploration into how that keeps you in this pattern of just being right, right, and so I'm going to have to think I don't know what I would have to think about that, what would I name my whatever Right, so that, just to interject, like ones and fours share a line, an inner access or error line, right, so we have a lot of things in common and the inner created is one of those things. But the difference is like for what you just described of this, like sort of inner dictator. The fours is more like an inner condemner of like, like you know, the deficient, like feeding the deficiency story, of like you're broken, you're right. So there's a subtle difference.

Speaker 1:

But it's still, it's that inner just, constant barrage of right, of criticism, right and which is not true, which is not true, but it feels true, but it feels true, exactly. Which is not true, but it feels true, but it feels true, exactly. Yeah, so how will you, how do you work with your inner critic today, beyond just naming her or it, fiona?

Speaker 2:

what has been the biggest challenge for you with working with your inner critic? I've had quite a bit of help with that from others. A friend of mine, who's also an Enneagram person, will say to me oh, just give Fiona a sandwich, you know, to keep her occupied. And then another person said just send her on a trip. Trip, send her off to Madagascar, far away, so that those things help me, because you know they're just funny and silly. Um, I would say the biggest challenge is like separating, like knowing that that voice is not true, and then separating that out from, like, my brain, my mental function does not have to be all about this inner critic. Like and just making space for my actual brain function, if you will. Yeah, does humor help you?

Speaker 1:

Oh, immensely. Yeah, yeah, yeah Does it. Is it about, um, not making fun of yourself because that doesn't sound right or like that doesn't sound helpful, but like, how does humor help you?

Speaker 2:

It honestly, lets me not take myself so seriously.

Speaker 1:

Oh, helps you relax a little, like into accepting like the imperfections. Yeah, accepting like the imperfections Totally.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I will say that I have a seven in my family and I think she helped immensely because I also, as one, have aligned a seven, and I think she helped a lot in just sort of loosening me up and bringing some flexibility to my thinking.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome. So just going to take a moment to kind of explain what it is. We're talking about these lines, right? So if you're looking at a diagram of the Enneagram, there's lines on the inside and two point to each number, and for the one, one of the arrows or lines points to four. Oh, look at that. You're so on top of it Once you see the arrow from looking at one pointing down to four, and then there's one over to seven, and so the beauty of what that does is that gives you an opportunity to kind of come out of your habitual way of being and, like you've got the, you've got access to the energy of those two points to include the wings, which is the type on each side.

Speaker 1:

For the one, that would be the nine and two, and so it can be a really helpful practice to to like oh well, let me learn a little bit. Well, let me learn a little bit about type four, let me learn a little bit about type seven and see how maybe I can incorporate some of the higher qualities of that type into my inner work practice to like get out of the habitual way of being. So, like sevens are what. They're more fun and they're more spontaneous and they're less concerned with the rightness all the time. And the beauty is is that you have access to that energy Right, and so lifesaver of lifesaver, yeah, and so, just for the sake of you know, helping people who might be listening understand what it?

Speaker 1:

is that we're talking about, that we take for granted that we're like oh, we know exactly what we're talking about. Um, okay, so let's move on a little bit and talk about how one of the qualities of the one it's a challenge and it's also a strength of the one is their ability to notice errors and it's like noticing kind of the mistakes. The challenge part of that is that they have a compulsive need to correct what they see is not right or appropriate. Then the other side of that is that you know, when people are moving very fast and they don't really notice, the one can come in and be like oh, there's an error here, there's a mistake that we need to fix for the sake of like, let's have a quality product, or something like that. So my question for you is if you can tell us a little bit about what the low side of this characteristic does and how it affects you in your life and how it affects you in your relationship. And then how have you learned that that's a good quality about you?

Speaker 2:

Good questions and in a very one way I have my notes here. Yes, referred to what my thoughts were around this. Okay, so of course the low side is that inner critic that is just like wanting me to be perfect, which is not humanly possible. So that's just a nuisance. And then I'm not going to lie. I mean OCD tendencies much less now than previously in my life.

Speaker 2:

When I look back at my childhood, I would wash my hands all the time. I mean, I still am a very good hand washer, but I would wash my hands all the time and just like the finicky, nitpicky stuff. So here's an example, and it pains me to tell you this, and yet it kind of makes me laugh too. So when my husband and I go out and we play cribbage, we'll go to brew pubs that we like. Okay, so what? You're drinking beer out of a pint glass. There's going to be water. So I always have to make sure that we have napkins so that I can make the area clean and dry before the cards come out. Okay, and he tolerates this because he knows me, and it kind of makes me crazy, but it is what it is. So I mean, I suppose the upside is, you know, you keep things clean and tidy.

Speaker 1:

But I will say I mean, I do like that, I'm organized and I think a lot of ones end up being editors, because we do see mistakes, which you know it has its place. Yeah, they're good at processes, right. Like there's a, a process of, well, there's. These are the steps that need to be done, and it needs to be done with a very detailed eye, and ones are very good at that. Right, it's drawn to it, right, and so it's like you're automatically drawn, your eyes are drawn to the like mistake or what might be wrong, and it's not. You're not doing it on purpose, right, it just is happening, right. I think that's important for people to know, because one of the things that happens with one is that the way people kind of receive them, in a way, is that they're critical and mental. And why are you always telling me that what I'm doing is not good enough or whatever? Right, however the person perceives it, and the intention of the one is always good, Like it's always meant to help it just doesn't get received that way.

Speaker 2:

That is totally true.

Speaker 1:

Can you talk a little bit about your experience with that and your relationships?

Speaker 2:

Well, my mind kind of went two different ways when you asked me that. What I want to say first, before I don't forget, is it does matter the subtypes it does, because, as a self-preservation one, I don't think I'm still doing the judging in here, but I am not outwardly so critical.

Speaker 1:

Whereas You're more critical of yourself, self-preservations are more critical of themselves, not as outwardly.

Speaker 2:

So even if I'm having critical thoughts about somebody else, I'm generally not going to put it out there, which I think is different for the social.

Speaker 1:

There's more the friendly warm and we'll talk a little bit about what that means. But, yeah, keep going Like, tell us more about the subtypes, Because I know that you're working on your professional Enneagram certification. I'm so excited.

Speaker 2:

You're almost done.

Speaker 1:

So I know that you know about all of the type one subtypes, so can you give us a little download about type one and their subtypes?

Speaker 2:

Oh, a little download, All right. So the self-preservation ones, of which I am one, come across as being very warm, because that judging thing is kind of kept inside and is largely pointed at oneself. And we are the most perfectionistic of the three ones. And a little side note, like writing for me writing in college writing papers was like I enjoyed it on the one hand and was crazy making on the other, because like when is it good enough? When is it done? That's where that perfectionism shows up. Social ones are more the teachers who are gonna model for you. They think they know the right way and then they're to do it the right way. And the sexual one is kind of the reformer. They bring zeal to not so much changing themselves but to change you, to have you do something the right way.

Speaker 1:

I've heard it like they give more orders. Yeah, we said the sexual. That's also can be referred to as one-to-one. People might have heard that instinct referred to as one-to-one. Just to clarify, it doesn't mean sex, it the instinct itself means that bonding of one person to another. There's a little bit more intensity underneath or wrapped up within that instinct. So thank you for that download about type one. So you being the self-preservation one, it's that you're very critical of yourself. And a passion of type one is anger. Like the type eight who can be really forward with their anger, ones don't express their anger directly, except maybe the, the one-to-one or the sexual one will express their anger a little bit more directly and but self-preservation ones, like you described, they really don't. So what's happening instead? You've got this anger, it exists. So what is happening inside of you when passion is fired up?

Speaker 2:

Well, excellent question, because I think a lot of people who, well, I don't know this, but for myself, when I found out I was a one and that anger was my passion, I was like what? No, I'm not angry, I don't see that. What? Because it's not out there how it started showing up for me when I learned I was a one, started doing self-observation. I would catch myself saying things under my breath all the time like oh, that's so annoying or oh, that's so stupid. And it was like oh well, in fact that's anger. That's anger, that's just sort of seeping out.

Speaker 2:

In my younger days what my anger looked like was I would do the silent treatment which was like I'm angry, but I'm not going to put it out there, I'm just going to sort of make you suffer by not talking to you about it. And thankfully I had a college friend bust me on that and say that's not fair because we can't do anything around the conflict. If you're just holding all this anger in, sadly, I must say okay, so ones are about autonomy and control, and independence are about autonomy and control and independence. I see my anger mirrored in when I'm dealing with my dogs and that just makes me so sad because when I'm walking them and they're off leash, if they're not kind of coming when I call for them, then I just I feel myself just get like and then they yell and then that's not cool. So in my own growth I am trying to get much more clear about okay, I'm feeling angry. I need to put that out there and say I'm angry about that. I just release it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, release it without, without an explosion, right, exactly, it's the the pause. You know, many people think that anger and all its forms are bad. So what is a positive use of anger?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's. It's sad that we have been conditioned to think that anger is is a bad thing because it is. It is. It brings energy to a situation. It's there for a reason. It's telling you something's not right, and it's now organizing action.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it's informing you right that something's not right, something isn't sitting right with you. The emotion of anger and so, when people can understand that, oh, there's actually a healthy use of this and anger isn't just about exploding or being violent or any of those things, does it get expressed in those ways sometimes? Yes, it does, sadly, but not all anger is bad or wrong. But the one who's very concerned with what is right and what is wrong, there's this inner kind of belief that I'm angry, therefore I'm bad, like this part of me is bad and I need to repress it, I need to push it down because I want to be good, I want to be right, I want to be pure. I don't want to make right, I want to be pure, I don't want to make mistakes.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and in a very simplistic manner. In in the brain, unconsciously, anger is equated with being bad, right, even though that's not true. That's that's what's going on inside.

Speaker 1:

But even, even culturally. That's what we think. So that's like a double whammy for ones. You're getting this input from the outside that anger is bad, but you're also getting input from the inside that anger is bad. There, ones who might be listening about anger, about how to lean into it for the purpose of learning more about yourself and kind of then releasing it and working with it, letting it work with you as opposed to working against it.

Speaker 2:

I am still figuring that out. I think just the very acceptance of the fact that it's an okay emotion to have and to not be afraid of it, that's a huge first step. And then realizing there are many ways that it can express itself Like it doesn't have to be in mean words, it can be in. I was just talking to somebody the other day about you know, like smashing a pillow, or she said she, she stands on her tippy toes and then slams her feet down Just ways of getting it out of the body.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, and two, to make a point like you are a body type, right? So eights, nines and ones are in the body tri go for like a robust walk that just kind of helps it all diffuse.

Speaker 2:

And one thing that's been very helpful for me in my learnings is when Russ Hudson will talk about anger and say you know, true, anger doesn't last. It's a and if you release it then it's gone, as opposed to just sitting on it and letting it fester. So I guess I would encourage the ones out there to not sit on it and let it fester.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Well, so what happens when you do sit on it? So I I've heard you say before, like that there's kind of this rigidness, right Like, and ones are kind of known for being a little like really good posture and kind of constricted, like constricted in this upper part of the body. Yeah, you're trying to control, control and so there's, it can look rigid, they can move a bit. Even so, when you're, when you're doing a somatic release of anger, is that a part of it? Is this does this part of the body, this kind of upper shoulders, neck, into play of like, how and how do you release that? What has been helpful for you for relaxing that upper part of the body?

Speaker 2:

I will tell you that before I understood what was going on, I got, I had massages a lot and they honestly didn't really do a lot because I mean sure it felt good in the moment, but the type structure is so strong that that momentary relaxation would just be gone so very quickly. So now I mean as a body type, doing things like yoga, stretching that those are very helpful things I've also gotten it helps me immensely to do meditations where you land in your body and relax. I mean relaxation, and I can.

Speaker 1:

I can do that by going through the body and relaxing each part can do that by going through the body and relaxing each part, like a body scan meditation, where you're recognizing, like where the tension parts points are and right, and then putting your attention there to relax the tissue muscle. Yeah well, that's great. That's such good advice, thank you. So one thing that I have always found really interesting about type ones and I've heard you talk a lot about, so I wanted to ask you to share is about the defense mechanism which is called reaction formation. Can you describe what reaction formation is? Can you describe what reaction formation is? I can try.

Speaker 2:

And I wish I knew why it has that name.

Speaker 1:

It is an interesting name.

Speaker 2:

And I feel like I kind of had a conversation with somebody once about that and I can't recall it now so I won't try. It's a really nutty, nutty thing and, again, unconscious. All of this, you have to understand, is unconscious. It's going against the impulse because, as ones like it's, almost like our impulses are suspect so it's all about control, right?

Speaker 1:

it's like you. You have this impulse and you have to control the impulse so that you don't do anything wrong.

Speaker 2:

Right, it's very exhausting. I the the best example, or kind of most concrete example I can give seen it in myself is when I was working in the schools. People would frequently come into my office and talk to me, because ones are often good listeners. I want to put that in there for ones. We are often good listeners, and so then people talk to us and I remember I would be sitting there, smiling, being pleasant, listening and thinking I have so much work to do. I really wish you would go away, so I'd be getting angry inside. But the person is not seeing that because I'm showing my happy face. So that's one example.

Speaker 1:

So anger is there, right. So you've got the passion of type. Anger is happening because you have things to do and this person is angry, invading on your time, but you're being friendly and you're just sitting there nodding, and that is a example of reaction formation, the way I understand it. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

Because if I were to go with let myself go with impulse, it would be. You know I have work to do, I can't talk right now, but then that's not being a kind person a talk right now, but then that's not being a kind person, which is what's being a kind person.

Speaker 1:

Not being a kind person is wrong, bad Bingo. Yeah, I love how all these points are coming together. I hope that other people are seeing the points that we're seeing at the moment yes, living the points is just like oh for all nine types.

Speaker 1:

I'm not saying this is just ones. When you see what you're up to, it's just like, it's so true, right, there's no, there's no um type. That's better than another type, even though we might think that it's like oh, I'd rather, I'd rather be a seven, right, like. But they have their own problems and they have their own issues. They have their own passion and their own fixation and their own defense mechanism that they have to deal with, exactly Just as you do as a one, just as I do as a four, as you do as a one, just as I do as a four. But the point I hope that people are seeing is that this work, while it's hard, is worthwhile. So, like, what has been the biggest benefit to you of really investing in doing Enneagram inner work in relation to you as a type one? Enneagram inner work?

Speaker 2:

in relation to you as a type one. Yeah, I love that question and I feel like I should sit in journal about that. I haven't really, but I think I can come up with something. Well, I will say that during COVID, I got so wound up in my personality and and in my body, my body was so tight I mean we were all.

Speaker 2:

That was crazy time and, um, like I, I, I felt like I reached the point where I just couldn't go on anymore with the self criticism and just all the blah, blah, blah and I kind of felt depressed, both depressed and desperate about it. And that was around the time that I started doing going to retreats about the Enneagram and really started unpacking what what type one means and and then by understanding it being like oh okay, now I see what it is, I can work with this. I'm not saying it's easy, I mean because it is work, inner work is work, so but and it's so freeing, Like once you catch yourself, oh, I don't always have to react that way. Now, if I see what my pattern is, I can sort of go okay, that is how I normally do it. But hey, what about if I breathe for a couple of minutes and react differently this time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love the way you said that. Right, inner work is hard work. It's called work for a reason there. It requires intention, yes, focus, but there is so much hope and freedom in it to like, get out of, like just your habitual way of being. That's the point of this work. It's not about attaching labels to you. Know who you are and oh, I'm this way, so you just have to deal with it. Right, that's just who I am. It's about getting out of who you are for a more free, balanced life. It's just wonderful, but it's hard, hard work.

Speaker 2:

It's hard work and it requires a ton of self-compassion. And I will say one other thing I love so much about the Enneagram is, as you get to understand the different types, you have more compassion for other people Like oh, that's what's happening for you.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes. So, like, I know a one that is presently not doing any inner work, not doing any inner work, and I find myself getting very triggered sometimes by this person because it's it's like I, I don't need to be directed and told, like a child, what to do. Very frustrating, but I, in fact, this just happened yesterday and it had to be like no, this isn't even about me. Like, right, I can let this go, this is, this is just the one you know, coming forward and I can have compassion for how that feels and and just let this go. And it was, it was helpful.

Speaker 1:

But in the past, like that would have stayed with me for a long time. Like this, I would have taken that in as as criticism of myself of not being good enough, of like, what about me? Makes her think that I don't already know this? Like, why is she having to teach me something that in no way have I expressed? I don't know, right? So I'm like, oh, I don't have to hold on to this, I can really just let this go and have compassion for this person who I care very much about. Yeah, and that's why, right, so, um, I did have. Oh, I wanted, cause we, I wanted to tell people like you and I met at one of those retreats. I went to this retreat, I signed up, I knew no one and I sat down next to Mary Shaw and you just were so delightful Like that is the word I use to describe you you are just delightful and you make me laugh and I remember us just looking at each other and just laughing because we're like what are we doing here? What is this all about?

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you for that, and it was so lovely to meet you then and to get to know you over this time, no, it's been two, two years, and it's just.

Speaker 1:

we have stayed connected and I have so appreciated your wisdom and and friendship, and it's just been awesome.

Speaker 2:

Likewise, likewise.

Speaker 1:

So we are coming to the end of our time together and I want to give you an opportunity to say anything else about type one or the Enneagram or inner work that you would like to share.

Speaker 2:

Well, I love the example that you just gave here at the end of the person who triggers, the one type one person who triggers you because, interestingly, yes, they can be we can be very triggering. And the thing is and I've had this experience in my own world of, and like I should know better because I'm a one but criticizing a one, my criticizing another person who's a type one and getting major blowback one and getting major blowback. And the thing to remember with type ones is that there's already so much inner critic happening inside that if you pile on, it's like we can't, we can't handle it Right. And so then the which I know for everybody else it's that's just annoying as all get out. Else that's just annoying as all get out. But remember that underneath that one there is this desire for goodness, sacredness, balance in the world. There are good intentions underneath all of the stuff you see in the personality.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, wanting things to be good, wanting things to be right, wanting other people to have an easier time, and if they would just do what you said, then life would be easier, right, well, exactly, the intention is so pure, and that's one thing that I have appreciated. Learning about once is is that you know you're so hard on yourself, and I wish that that wasn't true for you, because I wish you weren't so hard on yourself. It's like I want to say be kind to my friend Mary. Oh, thank you, because she deserves to be kind to herself. I'm working on it, and Fiona needs a hug to be sent to her room.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, take a nap, fiona, take a nap.

Speaker 1:

Fiona. Well, Mary, thanks so much. I just really have appreciated this conversation and I hope that you'll come on again sometime.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you so much for inviting me. This has been quite fun. It has been fun.