Your Enneagram Friend

Exploring All Nine Types

• Wendy Busby • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Are you ready to gain a deeper understanding of yourself and those around you? Join Wendy Busby and her inspiring co-host, Molly Knutson-Keller, a certified Enneagram coach and former Lutheran pastor, as they talk about all Nine Enneagram types!

Wendy and Molly introduce their collaborative venture, Enneagram in Action, which is designed to help you integrate Enneagram wisdom into your everyday life, enhancing your relationships, parenting, work dynamics, and spiritual journey. 

This episode is brimming with insights and practical applications, making it a valuable listen for anyone eager to embrace their true selves through the Enneagram. 

Curious about your Enneagram Type? Click here to buy the assessment https://wendybusbycoaching.com/enneagram-type-test

For more Enneagram insights follow Wendy on Instagram @your_enneagram_friend
https://www.instagram.com/your_enneagram_friend/

Want to work with Wendy?
Book your 1st session for FREE, no strings attached, I promise!
https://wendybusbycoaching.com/schedule-a-session-1

Lean more about Molly Knutson-Keller 
https://www.walktalkcoach.co/

Are you curious about what your Enneagram Type is?
Click here to buy the online Enneagram Test https://wendybusbycoaching.com/enneagram-type-test

For more Enneagram insights follow Wendy on Instagram @your_enneagram_friend
https://www.instagram.com/your_enneagram_friend/

Are you ready to begin your coaching journey?
Book your 1st coaching session here for FREE, no strings attached, I promise!
https://wendybusbycoaching.com/schedule-a-session-1

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone and welcome to the your Enneagram Friend podcast, where I have engaging and thought-provoking conversations with my friends about the Enneagram. I'm Wendy Busby, your very own life and relationship coach, here to inspire you to know yourself better. Here with me today is my good friend and teaching partner, molly Knutson Keller. Together we're going to take you through an overview of the nine types. Hey, molly.

Speaker 2:

Hey, great to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for being here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So Molly and I met at CP Enneagram Interwork Retreat two years ago and we both went through the CP Professional Certification Program and earlier this year, on a random Zoom call we had with one another, we decided to put our heads together, pull our talents together and we have created a teaching program called Enneagram in Action, and this is a program where we offer online workshops and we have some self-paced digital mini courses in the works with some really cool topics. So stay tuned for more about that. So, molly, before we get started on our overview today, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, how you discovered the Enneagram and how you use it in your personal and your professional life.

Speaker 2:

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be here, wendy. This is super exciting and a little bit about me. I transitioned careers about three years ago. The process started about five years ago.

Speaker 2:

I was a Lutheran pastor for over 25 years, serving in all sorts of different contexts and situations, from prison ministry to parish to campus ministry, to all sorts of different expressions. And about five years ago I said I have a dream to do some mind, body, spirit connection and go, be able to go a little deeper with people in relationship with self-discovery and healing and personal growth. And that's where my business and passion of coaching has come to life. So I currently am called Molly KK Coaching. That's my practice and it is somatic-based, presence-based coaching with the integration of the Enneagram as people choose. They don't have to, but they can, right. And so I was certified, as you said, through CP Enneagram Academy, which was excellent, and before that I also did a year-long certification through the Deep Coaching Institute, which is presence-based coaching, connecting mind, body, spirit and heart and the Enneagram. So, as you mentioned, us putting our heads together and our hearts together and our physical space together to create this Enneagram in action has been so fulfilling.

Speaker 1:

It really has. I'm so excited for us.

Speaker 2:

And one of the things that I think is a clue is the ease in which things have unfolded, and it's fun to think about both of us being heart types in our different ways, but we have, like, just dug deep in and it's just coming together so well, yeah it really just came.

Speaker 1:

It did. It was so organic. Yeah, it just happened on a random call and we were just like right and I said, hey, would you ever consider collaborating on something together? And she's like, and you're like, oh, I'm so glad you asked, because I've already been thinking about that.

Speaker 2:

It's like yes, let's do it, let's do it. And then here we are, and then here we are, and, um, yeah, the word that just came to me, wendy, is efficient, like the way that it organically has unfolded is efficient, and sometimes I can be a little bit okie, so it's just beautiful to partner with you. So share with people what your type is. Okay, so I am an Enneagram self-preservation tube and we'll get more into that in just a little bit, right? Yes?

Speaker 1:

Well, we're going to talk about the type 2 in general. We're not going to go over subtypes. But you know, for people who know, it's good to know that you're a self-preservation 2. I'm a self-preservation 4. So we're coming in strong with the self-reservation instinct.

Speaker 2:

So yay, let's high five, right? Um, so a little bit about Enneagram in action. If I can share our, our vision, please do. Like this firm foundation in current uh, really strong Enneagram theory, and so we teach a firm foundation in that in a way that's simple, accessible and fun. And then out of this firm foundation, which will be influenced and integrated into anything we offer, we wanted to help people put the Enneagram in action, like to really help it, help people in their day-to-day lives.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's not just about knowing about it, it's about doing something with what you know about it, and that's where the word action came in to be. It's like we want forward movement side, we want movement in our life, in our growth, and so you have to take what you know and you have to do something with it.

Speaker 2:

Right, and it starts with me, it starts with you, it starts with the individual, exactly, and then how we apply it and integrate it. And so, from this firm foundation, enneagram in Action will help people apply it to parenting, to relationships, to life in the workplace, to spirituality, to whatever you're interested in, whatever your listeners are interested in, whatever our community asks for. So that's Enneagram in action.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, that was beautifully said, molly. Oh, thank you. So let's Enneagram in action. Exactly, that was beautifully said, molly. Oh, thank you. So let's get into this. Yeah, okay, do it All right. So I think it's good for people to know just kind of what is the Enneagram. It's such a strange word and you know, I'm around a community of people who have never heard about it, and so I'm starting with the basics and so many people are like the, the Enya, the, the what. Yeah, I even had I haven't had one lady she was like, so I guess I need to learn about this enigma. That was so brilliant, right, I think it was like brilliant moments and it's like yeah, you have no idea.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. That is so awesome.

Speaker 1:

So funny, but okay. So what is the Enneagram? The Enneagram is a powerful and profound self-development system. It describes nine distinct personality types and it serves as a sense-making framework for understanding our motivations. And it gives us tangible and practical applications for personal, professional and spiritual growth. It helps you see and understand your habitual patterns and highlights those blind spots that limit growth and transformation. So, molly, can you tell us where the Enneagram came from? A little bit.

Speaker 2:

A little bit Sure. Just touching on it briefly, the Enneagram system is between 2000 and 4000 years old, so this may be new to us, but it is ancient. Its roots are in the mystical aspect of Sufism, christianity and other ancient wisdom traditions. So it has this rich past and and throughout the centuries it has come organically to the surface at different times. So today the Enneagram is used much more recently being developed in the 20th century. The modern synthesis of the Enneagram system, how we understand it today, began with the teachings of George Kerchief, an early 20th century spiritual teacher who is one of the people you hear referenced a lot in current school of Enneagram thought. Kerchief and the specific application to personality came through the work of Oscar Hichazo in the 1960s and then also subsequently Claudio Naranjo.

Speaker 2:

So, they happened to bring it here in the 60s and 70s to the United States. So these thinkers, these scholars, they really helped shape the Enneagram into this tool for personal development, linking each of the nine points to distinct personality types. And it has just expanded its complexity, and it's right.

Speaker 1:

Because it's so practical. Yeah, there's. So you know, I had taken personality assessments and things before and it's like it tells you what, okay, these are your, your strengths, these are the things that you struggle or challenges, or weaknesses, right. And it's like yeah, I know that. So, so, what? Like, so, okay, and the enneagram does that, but it but it talks about why, like, why is this something that you're just natural and good at? And why are these are the things that you habitually struggle with and you find happen over and over and over and get in your life, because then you can really really use it to make some lasting change in your life. I love, and I want everyone to love it right, and I want everyone to love it Right, and I want everyone to benefit from the amazing tool that it is the amazing and the dynamic tool.

Speaker 2:

Like that, we can use the whole of it. Even when we're landed in one certain type, we have access and ability to use our use the system to help us get unstuck Right, to help us problem solve, to help us deepen relationships most importantly with our own selves, I know and ripple effect out into the world.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so for the purpose of trying to put some parameters around the framework, yes, let's start by briefly talking about the three centers of intelligence the body center, the heart center and the head center. And each of the three centers has three types in it. So if you're looking at the diagram, you can see the structure of three within it. So the body center is made up of types eight, nine and one. The heart center is made up of types two, three and four, and the head center is made up of types five, six and seven. So what are the key traits of each one of these centers of intelligence? So we can kind of get an idea of really what that means. So, Molly, what? What are the key traits of the body center? Eight, nine and one?

Speaker 2:

Right, Okay, so the three centers of intelligence. I am a little bit, I'd have to say, passionate about the three centers because the accessibility to all three, even knowing about them, is so helpful in grounding and presence. So, starting with the body center, it's connected to action, it's instinctual, and the use at the body center is movement, action, gut knowing kind of like. Oh, I felt it in my gut. You hear people say the underlying concern is connected to control and to anger, and so that's types eight, nine and one. The heart center is connected to the emotional, and that is types two, three and four, and they use, we use relationships, compassion and affection and the underlying concern or what it's connected to is sadness and image. And the head center, that is types five, six and seven. That's the mental center, and they use planning and insight. That's the mental center and they use planning and insight, analysis, sometimes rumination, and the underlying concern is connected to fear and safety, and that's types five, six and seven.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love the way you broke that down, because and it's so helpful you know when you, when you start, when you do discover your type, and because we'll probably have, you know, some listeners that are new to the Enneagram. It can be a challenge to discover your type at first, and that's totally okay. It's okay that it takes some time. This is a process of self-discovery. It requires a looking inside of yourself and observing yourself, reflecting on pat on the past of like, okay, this is, these are some patterns that I can, um, you know, be willing enough to admit that they're patterns in your life. And, and Some people are like, well, can I be two types? Can I? So when someone, when you're working with someone, molly, and someone says, well, and can I be more than one? Because I can't, I can't figure it out, what do you say to people when they ask that question?

Speaker 2:

That is a great question and just to kind of piggyback on what you're saying wherever someone finds themselves on the Enneagram in this process of self-exploration is perfectly okay. It still serves self-awareness and growth, personal growth.

Speaker 2:

And I'll say this from experience. I lived for a long time as an Enneagram type six, and it was the influence of that self self preservation and I didn't know that, and so it served me well, though it didn't hurt me. And the beautiful thing that happened for me was my professor just met me right there, my coach, my teacher was like oh okay, you don't think you're a six anymore, great, you're a two, um, as I said. And so, um, there's no judgment. When someone talks to me about where they're, you know if they're two types or whatever, I do share that. No, actually, we do land in one type and keep being curious, with compassion being curious, and um, and that's's, that's one of the values of our Enneagram action curiosity with compassion for yourself and others.

Speaker 1:

Yes, curiosity with compassion. That is the foundation, and I love it so much. It's such a type thing to do yes, it is.

Speaker 2:

yes, that's right, and you know we all have that really honed skill of the inner critic, whatever it is. So this is really intention around curiosity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, all right. Well, I think that that's enough, you know, jabber, for us. Ok, so I like OK, we'll get on with it, get on. Ok, here we go. Okay, we'll get on with it, get on with it. Okay, here we go. So let's start with type eight, Because we talked about the centers of intelligence. The body center is types eight, nine and one. Let's just go ahead and start with type eight.

Speaker 1:

So, I'm going to give a quick overview and you pop in with whatever your thoughts are about Type B8, and then we'll go from there.

Speaker 2:

Okay, sounds great.

Speaker 1:

Good, all right. So Type B is often referred to as the powerful challenger. They're characterized by their strong will, self-confidence and their innate leadership abilities. Eights are decisive and assertive people. They often naturally step into roles that require strength and control. They're driven by a desire to be independent and they resist being controlled by others, and this makes them fiercely protective of their personal space and their autonomy.

Speaker 1:

Some key words associated with type eight are assertive, confident, confrontational and protective. Their core fear is to be harmed or controlled by others or to be vulnerable or weak, and their core desire is to be in control and be able to protect themselves and others. So eights are known for their direct communication style and for their ability to make tough decisions. They have a very commanding presence and they often inspire others through their confidence and determination. They're incredibly protective of those they care about. They often advocate for justice and fairness, but they focus their attention on denying vulnerability. They get big and strong and exert power and control over their environment so that they can get things done.

Speaker 1:

They move at a fast pace. They don't like it when it takes too long to get things moving, but because they avoid being vulnerable, they can come off as confrontational or intimidating. Most aides will not say that they seek out conflict, but they're not afraid of it and will face it head on. And it's a big energy that they have, it's a big intense energy and they move fast and they just they often like don't really even think about the impact that they have on others, their decisions have on others. They just move fast.

Speaker 1:

So it's like fire ready aim rather than ready aim fire. You just go and do, and this applies to projects and to people. They want everything in the extreme and they seek out intense experiences in any form and they have this inner belief that any unwelcome event that happens to them or to someone they love must be met with retaliation or consequences. So a big misconception about AIDS is that they're tough all the time when in reality they have a really soft inside and they just want the people that they care about to be taken care of and safe. So they deny their vulnerability and then they overcompensate with a stance of strength and power so that they don't have to feel vulnerable at all. What would you add to that? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:

I really like how you summed this up and there's so much more to it. Eights, of course, you lay in here eights and whatever your subtype is, that influences the expression of the eight type as well. But that whole tender, vulnerable heart. I really appreciate that as far as the energy of strength and then really remembering that eights have a vulnerable, they are vulnerable, and so it's really important to be sensitive to that as well, especially when eights are doing their inner work.

Speaker 1:

It can be, yes, and they're trying to lean into that, letting go of this. You know power and strength that they have to exert all the time and being vulnerable it's. It's hard, yeah, and so if you have an eight in your life that's working on themselves, be really compassionate and patient with the process.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to say, if that's okay, um, one thing I love and appreciate so much about eights is their directness, and I learned from that and I trust their transparency. They're going to say the truth and be direct with me and you're always going to know where you stand, and I really appreciate that. So, yeah, hey, great.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so why don't you tell us about type nine?

Speaker 2:

Okay, I'll tell you about type nines. Nines are known as the modest mediator and one little teaching interjection here about the names the modest mediator or whatever you'll do, the challenger, like we just talked about. Yeah the powerful challenger. Keep in mind, those are just sound bites and you'll hear them referred to as different things the nine's, often called the peacemaker. Yeah exactly this is what we've gone with with ours, and they might change and in no way can that title encapsulate the depth and the breadth of any type, so it's a soundbite.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's just a little and just to reiterate that this is an overview. Yeah, it's so much more complex than all of this, but we just wanted to give people an idea of the Enneagram as a whole, out of the wavetops. This is wavetops, wavetops Okay, go ahead. Type them.

Speaker 2:

Type nines they're characterized by calm demeanor and receptiveness and this deep-seated desire for internal and external peace. Nines are at their best when they bring they're bringing people together and creating harmony in their environment. They're driven by a need to avoid conflict and maintain their inner serenity, which often makes them skilled at diffusing tense situations. Keywords around nine types nine easygoing, accommodating, reassuring, complacent. Their core fear is to experience loss or separation, to deal with conflict or change or to have their inner peace disrupted. And the core desire, their core desire underneath is to be at peace and to be in harmony and to have inner stability. Nines are known for their ability to see multiple sides of an issue, making them excellent mediators and counselors. They're typically easygoing, supportive and stable, providing a grounding presence. They focus their attention on other people, other referencing, and on what other people want and desire. They are the go-along-to-get-along type. This leads them to disconnect from what they want and what they desire, and nines can have a hard time locating their opinion, so the opinions of others become their opinion.

Speaker 2:

Nines are often busy people, but they are busy engaging in numerous activities and maybe everything but what is the most needed or appropriate one that will move their own agenda forward. They have an inner belief that they're less important than others, and this leads them to devalue themselves and to act against their own self-interest at times. One misconception about nines is that they never get angry because they seem so easygoing. But nines have a lot of anger. They may just push it down so that they can maintain peace and harmony, and they may even repress it and not even know that it's there. Most nines will admit to feeling anger, but then sometimes they get to the point where they've had enough. They suppress it, but then they've had enough and they explode. Or maybe they move into action by being passive, aggressive and so anything you wanna add to the nine comments.

Speaker 1:

So because I live with the nine oh, me too I know both of our husbands are nine, so we have that also in common. You know, it's this, it's, I don't know, I have this way of being. They're so generous and kind that they just forget themselves. Yes, and it's like no, like you're important, like you, you have so much value, but they just sort of forget, yeah, they have that, they're important, right and yeah and that we need them at the table.

Speaker 2:

Bring yourself to the table, please.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and if you want to, if you want not you, molly, but people who are listening if you want to learn a little bit more about nine, I just recently did an interview with a type nine. Yes, she shared a lot about how nineineness shows up in her life.

Speaker 2:

So love that. That was really good. I love that podcast.

Speaker 1:

Oh, thanks.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I'm glad you liked it. Okay, so let's move on to type one. So type ones we call them the principled reformer. So type ones we call them the principled reformer Just because, like we talked about so ones are defined by their strong sense of right and wrong and their commitment to what they believe to be right and their desire to improve themselves and the world around them. They're very conscientious, ethical and they have a strong focus on maintaining integrity and high standards. They're natural perfectionists and they often hold themselves and others to a really high standard. They're driven by a moral inner compass that guides their actions and decisions, making them really dedicated to causes that promote betterment and fairness.

Speaker 1:

And some of the key words that describe type one are principled, purposeful, self-controlled and perfectionistic, and they primarily they struggle with being critical of themselves and others.

Speaker 1:

Their core desire is to be good, have integrity and to do what's right, and their core fear is to be wrong, corrupt, unethical, cause harm to others or to make mistakes, and they focus their attention on making things right, and they do this by identifying and correcting errors and imperfections and in an effort to make things as right as possible.

Speaker 1:

So, when they encounter the opinions or the actions that clash with their personal belief of correctness. They can get really angry, but the anger is repressed and instead comes out as a frustration or rigidness. You'll often see one sort of kind of go like tightening of the shoulders and rigidness in the jaw, and you'll know, okay, they're feeling angry, but they're not going to show it, they're going to press it down because they often think that, well, anger is bad and they want to be good, so I can't be angry. So what happens is that then they just become more friendly, but their friendliness is in an effort to control their underlying anger. So if I'm friendly, then I'm in control of this anger, and they have an inner belief that they're responsible for shouldering the burden of correctness for everyone, that they're responsible for shouldering the burden of correctness for everyone and that they're missing out on the fun that other people get to enjoy because they're so concerned with being good and right.

Speaker 1:

So my conception about ones is that they're always judgmental and critical, and while they can be received like this by others, it's important to understand that their intention is to be helpful and to guide others to be the best versions of themselves. And it's also important to note that, while you may feel criticized by a type one in your life, you can be sure that they are harder on themselves than they are on anyone else. What would you add to that, molly?

Speaker 2:

yeah, um, I I think that's such a helpful thing to keep in mind is the intention. The type one is to help and to help people be their best selves, including themselves, and that inner critic is. You know we talked about we all have the inner critic and it's said often that type ones have the strongest inner critic or committee of inner critics.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so telling them what they're doing not well, yeah, and how it could be more right or more perfect or this, and that makes me feel so sad for them, because you know that's hard.

Speaker 2:

That is the beauty of this system, this Enneagram system, is the rip, the compassion that it unleashes. When I for myself, like we talked about curiosity with compassion but also understanding, it just offers us freedom and compassion as I learn about other people. It gives you a framework for compassion. Yeah, understanding.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2:

Great.

Speaker 1:

We did the body types. Okay, we did the body types, types eight, nine and one. So as we transition to the heart types again type two, three and four can you remind us a little about like? What are the key traits of just like heart types in general?

Speaker 2:

they're going to feel and sense what Heart types in general are connected to the emotional center of intelligence. They use relationships, compassion, affection, and their underlying concern again is with sadness and image.

Speaker 1:

All three of the heart types are image conscious and that gets expressed in different ways for each of the two, three and four, but they are all image conscious and relationship focused types.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and I just want to acknowledge as a type too, it was kind of like, ooh, image, but I've fully embraced that that is true. Yeah, image conscious.

Speaker 1:

And that's true, and that's true for all of us. I mean, I've said this on previous episodes that you know, you know you've hit your tight when you're like I don't want that to be my type, no, I don't, I don't want that to be true about me, but it but it is true. And but it is true. And when you can own the truth and you can do something about it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like that's the beauty of it, that gentle honesty with ourselves, gentle honesty.

Speaker 1:

So as our type two here molly tell us about type two, okay I will tell you about type two.

Speaker 2:

Um, type twos are known here as the strategic helper. Uh, strategic, if you notice.

Speaker 1:

Notice that helper I know, and you're like, I don't like the word strategic.

Speaker 2:

But it's true, yes, and twos are characterized by an empathetic nature and an inherent desire to be of service to others. At their core, twos possess a deep-seated need to be loved and appreciated. Twos possess a deep-seated need to be loved and appreciated, driving them slash us to consistently put others' needs before their own. Twos excel in interpersonal relationships, displaying warmth, generosity and a keen sense of the feelings and needs of those around them. They are typically very approachable and have an uncanny ability to make people feel cared for and important, and this makes them invaluable in roles that require nurturing and support, such as healthcare, education, counseling. That all lands and one of the things that's really funny, I've heard it asked like raise your hand if twos, if you think you can make anybody like you, right.

Speaker 1:

That's so much.

Speaker 2:

I learned after that that's a trick question, but a great telling question. Super, super funny. So key words around twos caring, generous people, pleasing and possessive. Others experience twos as helpful and also resentful. Primary struggle for twos is really neglecting our own needs and also in setting boundaries, sometimes my boundaries. One thing I say about twos often is my energy can be sitting in the lap of someone else. How can I help you? And I might not even know that.

Speaker 2:

So so our core desire, their core desire of twos is to be loved and wanted and needed by others, and the focus of attention is on relationships, relationships, relationships concentrating on the needs and the feelings of others. And because of that, twos will adjust their behavior to appeal to what they believe others appreciate and that that can be part of that image. Deep in their heart, twos have the sense that they can get anyone to like them, as I was just talking about, and will do just about anything to make that happen. Very charming and have a way of seducing people. All this leads twos to have this exaggerated sense of their own significance. Plus, they have an inner belief that they must influence others positively by being kind and offering praise or flattery to make the other person feel valued, so that in turn, the person will then love them, the two, and value and appreciate them. So it's a going outward to receive something.

Speaker 2:

A misconception about twos is that they we don't have any needs and are entirely self-sacrificing Self-sacrificing. It is worthwhile to note that the reason twos present as having no needs is because we crave exception and connection, and if we appear needy, then that might push the person they want to connect with away. So to ask for needs might push someone away and we really want connection. Twos need people in their lives to remind them that they are loved just by being themselves and that it is okay and it's not even important to have an express niece. So this, this word that comes to me, is enough, yeah, but they are enough.

Speaker 1:

So anything you want to add to that. No, I mean, I think that you did such a great job of. I mean, you're an expert too, right? So no, I don't, I don't have anything to add to that. I love the twos in my life and like it's just, you know, because you are, you're all so loving and caring and you know, and it makes me feel sad for you that it's like there's this I have to do that so that someone else will love me instead of just being enough to be loved for who you are and you are absolutely enough to be loved for who you are, without all of the trying to get it from people by being everything that the other person means.

Speaker 2:

Right, yeah, thank you. And that's the beauty of consciousness, right, becoming conscious of what, that underlying motivation, that underlying core fear and core desire that flavors so much of our patterns and behavior. And this is for any type. Once we recognize that and go. Oh, I just want to be loved.

Speaker 1:

Right and all types are praised in a certain way for those, the things that we wanted. That we should really change right In our own way. We're kind of praised. It's just chooseos are, you know, praised for being helpful, and like if someone needs to volunteer for something, the two is going to be like I volunteer, you know yeah, or whatever, and it's like, oh well, gosh, they're so, you know, helpful. It's self-sacrificing and they're not selfish and it's like but underneath all of that is the motivation to get their own needs met. So it's not altruistic, right.

Speaker 2:

And all of these patterns came from somewhere. They served us. They served us for so long. They were adaptive strategies from really young places, and maybe they're not serving us anymore, and so that's where this personal growth and self-awareness comes in, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, tell us about the threes. All righty, okay. So threes are called the productive performer and they're defined by drive, ambition and a desire to be valued for their accomplishments. They're individuals that are dynamic, self-assured, they're highly motivated and they're really focused on setting and then achieving the goals that they've set. Setting and then achieving the goals that they've set. They thrive on success and often adapt their image and persona to meet the expectations of their environment. So this is, again, it's the image conscious. Remember, heart types are image conscious and image driven.

Speaker 1:

The two does it to help people, get people to love them. The three does it so that they'll be seen as successful and accomplished, and so they do this as a way of navigating the social and professional landscapes. They use charm and confidence and competence, and they excel in leadership roles and engage in activities that are a bit competitive. Often. Some key words that describe them are adaptable, ambitious, again, image conscious and efficient. They're very efficient people.

Speaker 1:

They primarily struggle with their self-worth on the external validation that they receive from all of the things that they achieve. Their core desire is to be valued and successful, and they fear not being good enough or to be seen as unimpressive, so they focus their attention on setting and achieving goals and performing well and crafting an image of success. They're driven to adopt identities that they believe others will be, will see as successful, and so that they can then lose touch with their authentic selves. So, deep down, they have this inner belief that they play a more crucial role in making things happen than they really do, and all the recognition that they get for working hard and accomplishing their goals it just perpetuates this disconnection with who they truly are on the inside, because they've over-identified in some way with what they think other people will see as successful.

Speaker 1:

That's the key to understand about type threes, and so a misconception about that, though, is that they're superficial and that they're only focused on achieving, but the reality is that they are fundamentally driven by a need to feel valuable and worthy, and their achievements are a way that they gain affirmation and they prove themselves worthy, so it's like that push pull kind of thing that happens. So threes have a lot of emotion. They're the center of the heart triad, or the heart center of intelligence, so they have a lot of emotion, and they can be very, quite sensitive, but they push those emotions away and push them down so that they can keep working because emotions are going to get in the way of accomplishing their goals, so they just push them out, but they are very, very emotional on the inside Right and sensitive and sensitive Right. Yeah, what would you?

Speaker 2:

add to that. Thank you, yeah, I mean. One of the things that can happen in the pattern for threes is this leveling up and that can just be exhausting when the next higher goal.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they often won't even celebrate the goals that they've accomplished, because they're already on to the next goal. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so recognizing that and taking a beat, yeah, and I was just thinking, wendy, that you and me both have access to the three as our wings. We do, so leaning into that is serving us well.

Speaker 1:

Yes, we've talked about that of like cause. That's one of the cool things about the Enneagram in relationships and how you can use it in relationships is finding those connecting points with the other important people in your life, like, for instance, our husbands. Well, my husband is a type nine and he has a wing of one and I have an access or an arrow line to one, so we can I can kind of come out of my fourness, he can come out of his nineness and we can meet at type one and be like okay, what are some of the higher qualities of this type that will help us in our relationship? And you and I can do that by meeting at type three and especially with this, the business venture right Of setting goals, achieving goals and being really focused and practical and all that. So I love, I love that for us love it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, wendy. Next we have type fours. I know, now do you? You are the type four expert inside and out, and so why don't you share about type fours? Okay?

Speaker 1:

I will do that. Oh, us type fours, I love you all so much. And we're often referred to as the authentic, creative and defined by our sensitivity, introspection. It's a deep seated desire for authenticity and personal identity. Fours are emotionally honest, creative and very personal, but they can also experience feelings of melancholy and longing, and that's where that sadness comes in. So fours have this unique ability to tap into the depths of human emotions and it makes them naturally inclined towards, like the arts and creative expression, and we want people to feel something deep when they see the things that we've created or hear the things that we've done. It's all about feeling. So fours are highly individualistic and they value being seen and understood for who they truly are. This drive for authenticity leads them to explore their inner worlds extensively, which can result in rich and sometimes tumultuous emotional lives.

Speaker 1:

100%, so some of the key words for our creative, sensitive, introspective and temperamental. They struggle with feeling misunderstood and feeling inadequate. They have a core desire to be authentic and unique and true to themselves and they have a fear of being without a unique identity or being kind of stuck in this ordinary, mundane sort of existence. So they focus fours focus their attention on their emotions and on the emotions of others and on the dynamics of the personal connections and disconnections with the people in their life that they're connecting with.

Speaker 1:

Fours have this deep inner belief that something is significantly wrong with them and that this triggers feelings of sadness and longing.

Speaker 1:

It's this longing for what is lacking and it leads the four to unfavorably compare themselves to others and what they perceive that, whatever quality that they lack and they think that somebody else has, and so then they compare themselves and they always not always, but often come up lacking.

Speaker 1:

They can sometimes have this kind of inferior and superiority complex. That can go both ways, but it just depends on what's happening at the moment. So a misconception about fours is that they're overly dramatic and self-absorbed and while it can look like that sometimes, it's a deep connection with the emotions and a desire to express them vividly. It's the intensity that fours desire, but in reality, like fours, just possess such a high level of emotional intelligence and because they're very authentic and seek connections that are genuine, they reject superficial interactions and false personas because they desire for a more you know experience, a deeper, more authentic emotions too, and all of this can come off as really intense and it can push people away, and so it can make it look like they're being kind of self-absorbed, but really it's just an intensity, an intense desire for connection.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2:

You're welcome for connection. Yeah, thank you, you're welcome. So one of the things that I have really learned to appreciate and practice in life is presence, and fours are really good at being present with their emotions and helping and teaching me to do that, to have a little more staying power, especially with what we call negative emotions sadness, anger, fear as, it's true, I spin everything to the positive. That's my tendency, and so the gift of the fours, to be bringing that meaning and that depth and that intensity, can be a gift, even in my impatience, right. And so recognizing that, and one of the things for fours and you, you know, jump in here, wendy, please but is that invitation to move outward, to move out of the emotions? Yeah, to move out of the emotions, yeah, intensity, yeah, but to be heard and to be listened to. So it is this interaction, um, that that, when we're conscious, can be such a blessing and gift right.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's very well said, thank.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for that yeah, because yeah because it really is just about the connection, like connect deeply with me, and I think it's important to say just in general that we categorize emotions as negative or positive to make sense of them. But they're all just emotions and they're all here for a reason. Sadness exists for a reason and joy exists for a reason. One is not more preferred than the other. They have, they're, both have purpose. And so I I have been trying more in my life to not say that they're negative emotions as opposed to positive emotions, but that they're just emotions and that they're okay and they're there to serve a purpose in the moment. But for the four not to get stuck in those quote unquote negative emotions, but to let them move through. All emotions should move through.

Speaker 1:

They're there for a reason Listen, learn and let them move on and so okay, so there's my little soapbox about emotions.

Speaker 2:

I love it and what the emotions do when we let them all be part of our repertoire. Right, they just expand our life experience when we let them all be part of our repertoire, right, right, they just expand our life experience, they expand the whole of ourselves, and it's that developing of yeah anyway.

Speaker 1:

I could go on and on. I know, yeah, we're the emotion relationship experts. Twos and fours, that's great. All right, let's move on. So we're we're now. We finished up the hard types two, three, four. So let's move into the head types types five, six and seven and do your little intro to that about, like, okay, remind people about the head center.

Speaker 2:

Okay, connecting to the head center. The head center is one that, especially in our culture, we are really good at honing those skills of the head center. But people who are connected to the head center the types are five, six and seven and they use mental planning, insight, analysis and sometimes called rumination. The underlying concern is about fear and safety. Anything you want to add to that, wendy?

Speaker 1:

No, no, I think the fear and the safety is a really important point for people to remember. Yeah, as we go through that.

Speaker 2:

Okay, yeah, that's a good, good point and it is one of the core emotions and for type types five, six and seven, it's something that is, um, uh, extra connection, yeah, like for all the types yeah, but can be hard type for them to identify and that we're not going to get into that.

Speaker 1:

But that's an interest. That'll be an interesting conversation when we do. Okay, so start us off.

Speaker 2:

Holly type one we'll talk about fives. Yay, fives, okay. Enneagram. Type fives are known as the analytical specialist and are characterized by their intense curiosity, perceptive insights and as a strong desire to gain knowledge and to understand the world around them. So knowledge seeking information is one of the main ways of type fives.

Speaker 2:

Fives are analytical, observant and often very innovative, preferring to think things through extensively before speaking or acting. To observe, fives value independence and personal space, often retreating into their minds where they feel most confident and in control. This intellectual approach provides them with a unique perspective and solutions to problems, making fives excellent in roles that require deep thought, that require research and that require independence or autonomy. The key words around fives analytical, perceptive, innovative and detached.

Speaker 2:

One of the primary struggles for fives is being overly focused on information and closed off to emotional connections. Their core desire is to be competent, to be knowledgeable and to be capable in any situation. The core fear is to be useless, to be incapable, uninformed or depleted of resources, and that can be of time, money, knowledge, space, resources are. Fives focus their attention on managing resources, like oh like, their time or space or energy, and they observe life rather than participate in it. Because they favor mental analysis over emotional engagement. Fives are reluctant to opening themselves up to giving or receiving, because they have this inner belief that if they don't tightly control and keep their resources, keep them to themselves, then others or the world will ask too much of them.

Speaker 2:

A misconception about fives is that they are detached or aloof. Yes, they do value their privacy, but this is an oversimplification. They have such depth and motivations. Fives are intellectually curious and have an insatiable need to acquire knowledge, giving them an ability to explore complex ideas and to offer unique perspectives. Their need for privacy isn't so much about a lack of interest in others, but of maintaining their focus on learning and acquiring knowledge.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, anything you want to add to that. I just think fives are so interesting and without explaining what wings are, we'll save that for another episode but I have a strong five wing and so I connect a lot with the fives experience. I can want to control my time and my space and like needing alone time and stuff like that, so I get it. Needing alone time and stuff like that, so I get it and I so I just find them super interesting people to have conversations with because they're so. They're often very smart and have data to like. It's just interesting. I don't know. Yeah, keep going. But I just I like fives. I think that they're interesting people. Yeah, all people are interesting, but I think I have a special connection just because I really relate to them a lot.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Interesting.

Speaker 2:

Well, and it shows, because of how incredibly gifted that you are in teaching, because you have gathered so much information and knowledge and an ability to share it as you lean into your five wing. So, molly, thank you.

Speaker 1:

All right, we've got two more to go let's do.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for sticking with us.

Speaker 1:

Here we go with type six. All right, all right. Type six are the skeptical, troubleshooters, and they're defined by a strong sense of responsibility, commitment, and they have this keen awareness of potential risk. Sixes are driven by desire for security and stability, and this makes them highly vigilant and prepared for challenges that might arise. They're loyal and trustworthy.

Speaker 1:

Sixes value strong supportive relationships, and that often serves as a backbone to their family, workplaces and social circles. Because they're so loyal and supportive of other people. They have this exceptional ability to foresee problems and they offer practical solutions when they see problems, which makes them completely indispensable in crisis situations. They might seem anxious a lot of the time, but when a crisis happens, they are often the most calm people in the room because they've already thought about all the things that could go wrong.

Speaker 1:

So a few key words that describe them are loyal, responsible, anxious, suspicious and they struggle with doubting themselves, and they can be a bit indecisive sometimes, because they're seeking that certainty and an effort to find certainty can lead them to being indecisive. They have a core desire to be secure, to safe, to have a plan, and they have a core fear to be without guidance or security, support or to be uncertain about things. They focus their attention on identifying potential threats, to stay vigilant to the complexity of things, and so then they use their analytical headspace skills to grasp various facets of situations and of people. So sixes are driven by fear, and this fear drives them to constantly anticipate what will happen to make them feel safer. And they have this deep inner belief that people's situations and life are unreliable, and this leads them to constant questioning. I'm sorry if you can all hear my dog barking in the background.

Speaker 1:

My dog Billy. Sorry about that. Everybody, I love it. A misconception about sixes is that they're paranoid all the time. And, yes, they have a need to test loyalties and they are skeptical, but it's. But it's because that they're seeking certainty and they're seeking safety. But it can get misinterpreted by others as paranoia safety. But it can get misinterpreted by others as paranoia.

Speaker 2:

This was making me think about lookalike types, wendy. Oh, I know we're going to have to do a whole series on lookalikes, absolutely so, as you talk about type sixes, a lot of times all the types can get confused or look alike like a different type, and what is really important, as you, your listeners, are listening about the types, is considering that underlying fear and importance of the safety and the desire to have safety, the fear and the safety, and so that interplay of the under the way, underneath, way underneath, is this core motivation and so yeah, so thanks for explaining about the sixes. Definitely, you're welcome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you're welcome, and subtypes play a big role with type six too. Yes, right, and it's going to be important to understand that also. All right, so take us home, molly.

Speaker 2:

Take us home with the sevens. Last but not least, thanks for hanging in sevens. Type sevens are known as the enthusiastic visionary and are characterized by their high energy, optimism and constant quest for new experiences or new adventures. Sevens thrive on excitement and they possess this natural curiosity about the world, very engaged. This drives them to seek out a variety of pleasures and activities. Sevens are adaptable, outgoing and often spontaneous, and they can bring this burst of energy or joy to any setting. Their enthusiasm is infectious and they are skilled at seeing the positive side of life, which makes them excellent motivators and really great team players. Some of the key words around sevens are spontaneous, versatile, distractible and adventurous.

Speaker 2:

Primary struggle can be. Sevens avoid difficult situations and difficult feelings and commitment. Their core desire is to be happy, to be content, to have choice, to be free to choose and to keep their options open. So sometimes it might be just last minute decisions about what the plans might be. Their core fear is to be deprived and be in pain and to have the freedom of choice taken away and to have the freedom of choice taken away. They focus their attention on creating positive outcomes and concentrate inwardly on their plans and also on their preferences, and that is to sidestep pain. They want to avoid pain and want to seek pleasure and minimize negative information. One of the key words if you ask a seven how they feel about the word bored, being bored or boredom that's really curious and fun to ask a seven about it is that's a great question.

Speaker 2:

Sevens have a big desire to indulge in a little bit of every possible positive opportunity that is available. Sevens have a big desire to indulge in a little bit of every possible positive opportunity that is available and they have their inner belief that to have that they have, and to have their own plan for enjoyable opportunities or they won't happen. So they're very great at planning planning for enjoyable opportunities, or planning for a vision in a company, or planning for a craft or, you know, teachers. They're very innovative, innovative, yeah, and sometimes the details are just not as fun. Right, a misconception about sevens is that they are superficial and irresponsible, when in reality, sevens have a remarkable ability to remain optimistic and to use that positive outlook to encourage the people around them. Their enthusiasm can and is infectious. They're also very resourceful people, making them excellent innovators and problem solvers, as you were just saying. Do you want to add to seven?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, again, I think I just I love seven so much too, because they're often the you know, stereotypically can be the life of the party and all of that because they're, they're, they're fun and light, they're fun and light, and that the counter to my kind of emotional angst all the time.

Speaker 1:

The seven I like to be around them because they, they kind of pull me out of that and I, I, I can have easier access maybe to the feeling of happiness when I'm around sevens, and so I just really appreciate that about them. Um, but, as we pointed out, it's important to understand that their need and desire to feel happy all the time is because they are really afraid and there's that fear underlying, fear of feeling discomfortable emotions, feeling uncomfortable situations or experiences, and so they let's just stay positive all the time so that we can avoid this other. So there's always that counter that is important when we're looking at the Enneagram or studying the Enneagram and you're getting to know your type more and more to look at. Okay, well, this is a positive quality. So what's the other side of that positive quality? There's something for us to learn about that for all of the types.

Speaker 2:

So this use and kind of superpower and overuse, overuse of things.

Speaker 1:

Yes, it can also be said as like okay, the strengths are also the weaknesses. Yeah, and the weaknesses are also the strengths, and that's a really interesting way to look at it and can help people understand themselves better. Which is one of our values again right. Values again right, is like helping people understand themselves and the important people in their lives better, so that they have more fulfilling lives and, more you know, deeper relationships with people and more authentic relationships.

Speaker 2:

And so and I really want to, if it's okay to just kind of piggyback on this, really channeling gentleness and compassion. Yes, what this consciousness does, what becoming self-aware. It can be painful and hard to see our ways, and the real gift in this is that when we become conscious and more self-aware in our, in our endless map of exploration, inner exploration when we become conscious, we gain choice and freedom. Yes, choice and freedom, and we can be more present in our life. And it just has this ripple effect yeah, ripple effect of good in the world Right.

Speaker 1:

It's not about digging harder into your way of being. It's about getting out of it so that you are freer. Yes, to be more authentically who you are.

Speaker 2:

Yes. I love it, oh my gosh, now I have one, for another thing we can talk about is really lifting up the true essence of each type the gift, the magical, yeah, anyway, I'll stop there, okay.

Speaker 1:

All right, we've gone over an hour so we'll wrap this up, but thank you for joining me on your Enneagram Friend podcast Molly my friend but also my teaching partner and we hope that all of you will stay tuned for what we have coming with Enneagram in action. So stay tuned for that and until next time, I just hope that everyone is doing well and I just want you to know that I love you all so much.